I was working as a CWI for an Eng. Lab. One project I worked on, I was responsible for my company loosing the contract because I stood my ground and questioned the co. that was doing the welding. It was on the interior of Folsom Dam on 3" mild steel, I was to inspect a root pass with dye-pen before welding could continue. I was accompanied by the co. Q & C, the welder, Gov. Engineers, all wanting the go ahead to continue. After cleaning, preping and looking over the welds, I could not ID what kind of weld it was, with 25 yrs as a welder, I was baffled.
I was not given a WPS. I found cracking in the throat in many areas
and knowing this not what they wanted to hear, I asked the QC if I could review the WPS or any specs so I could see what and how this was welded with. I was told that it was 7018 cranked up and run downhand. I questioned it and said I have never heard or believed
that any Low-hy rod was designed to go down as I pointed out the defective areas. Needless to say, I or my co. was not asked back. I had the support of my co. and the respect of my boss. But I still wonder, can 7018 be used downhand?
By -
Date 07-01-2000 16:25
All-Around Weld,
Yes, it's been my experience that E7018 can and is successfully used downhill around the country. I only have personaly approved the procedure and monitored it's application on field-erected storage tanks. This also holds true for the same application using E308L-15 & E316L-15 (lime coated).
Hot & fast= thin with a specific technique to roll the molten slag off so as not to allow impingement on the puddle or joint.
Was there a PQR???
Whats a WPS if there is no PQR to validate it.
Was the man (welder)Qualified to weld in that WPS, Position, Filler and progression?
All of the above should have been established before they even strung out the leads.
And yes E7018 can be run down hand but not a good idea in some areas.
I welded for years in the structural and pipe trades with a wide assortment of D1.1, section IX, and 1104 qualifications. I was always told and believed that 7018 could not be run downhill-until one day when I witnessed an "Old Timer" doing it with the finished weld being visually appealing and sound. Note that the welding was being performed on a structure that was not code specific and did not require any specific qualifications.
Once I saw this process/progression performed successfully I practiced it, became proficient, and now try to demonstrate the practice to other welders.
I've been a CWI and been inspecting for some time now. I have not actually used or approved a PQR/WPS that incorporated 7018 downhill. I have heard of the process being used on API 650 Tank construction to weld the vertical seams. This would require a PQR qualified to section IX.
By -
Date 07-02-2000 20:16
That's right JNAP about the API 650 and Sec.IX and don't forget the 620. I worked most of my career for what is now the 2nd largest chemical company in the world. Even though my former plant's location is not in a "Code state" ALL structural, piping, pressure vessels and field-ertected storage tanks were designed and built to the appropriate, nationally recognized, jurisdictional codes (AWS, ASME, & API).
My personal experience is that E-7018 CAN BE used vertical down, as stated by Seldom and JNAP (as a matter of fact, the number 1 means that it can be used in ALL positions), but IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED to do so for a number of reasons, one of which is that the lime cover has a low melting point and flows down over the metal making the welding operation difficult.
And now let me ask you a question, gentlemen who have English as their mother language: isn't "vertical down" the correct name of the position? Why do you use "downhand", "downhill" and "downwards" instead?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Good afternoon Professor,
Yes, you are certainly correct about the name of the position but as some of us came up through the welding ranks, old habits (slang being one) become ingrained and are sometimes hard to break. After all these years, the word "downhill" still rolls off the tongue and finger-tips easier then does "vertical down" or "vertical up" if I don't watch it!
Thank you, Seldom. In fact, that happens all over the world.
Giovanni
By -
Date 07-12-2000 16:58
Why would anyone want to run it "verticle down" when that adds to the difficulty of handling the puddle. The rod was designed to run "verticle up" so lets do it. The #1 does mean all positions but does not give the O. K. to run "verticle down" it means verticle, flat, horizontal, and overhead. I have not checked the code to support this but I believe AWS D1.1 has restrictions for low hydrogen rods being run "verticle down" on the cover pass only for cosmetic purposes.
By -
Date 07-14-2000 12:54
To All Around Weld and all the experts that commented,
All around You are partialy correct and those that replied some more correct than others. However I think there is a very important part that you all may have not answered for this brave inspector. I am not going to pre qualify myself for anyone here so that you take my advise unless someone would like to offer me a better job. All Around Weld you were brave and correct not to accept that root pass. All your reasons to reject were right on. The focus for rejecting should have centered on the end product not because it was welded downhand. Actually some welders may say (not the best welders) that downhand is OK. ITS NOT OK may be legal if qualified, but its not an OK weld. You found cracks in the root. OK all you in favor of welding downhill/vertical down or whatever "would you accept that weld"???. OR more importantly would you recommend they repair that weld by vertical down. Cracks in a root when welding vert down is typical and unacceptable. That entire weld if cracked in several places would have been cut out if I had a say in it. You had several reasons to reject. If it had been a code job IAW AWS they would need a PQR because vertical down is not prequalified, 2 there was no WPS, 3 the welder probably never tested to vert down, and 4 you found defects in the weld. HELLO DEFECTIVE WELD. I was CWI qualified which don't mean much to me since 1979 and I work for the Gov't. I reveiw contract language for Army procurements and because of my weld related experience tend to beef up the requirements. What bothers me is no one sticking up for you (especially the Gov't rep) when you find a defective weld that should have been reworked. What Gov't agency was it????? I would be happy to inquire why the Gov't did not take the correct stand. I know it was uncalled for, for them not to call you back. Personaly I may have focused more on the output (defects in the root) and less about the qualification in that situation. Hello "Vertcal down" is not and should not be standard practice in the welding industry when using xx18 electrodes. Anyone that defends that position is one of the rare and best welders, or not too informed, or loves to gamble. A very low percetage of the total population of welders are skilled enough to weld vertical down.
The weld cooled too fast due to lack of shielding in vertical down and that is why you had cracks. The best weld is no weld at all but because it is not practical to cast all steel products, the welding procedure selected must be optimal. So please don't promote or defend welding vertical down unless it is your only option. If thats your only option make sure you have a skilled welder or be prepared to find discontinuities.
TO ALL AROUND WELD, My hats off to you.
Dominic,
PS remember "The Best Weld Is No Weld At All"
