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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / code vs. specification
- - By milles Date 12-28-2010 18:53
Is there a difference between a code and a specification?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-28-2010 20:14
Yes.

Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 12-28-2010 21:27
Unless its ASME Section II in which case it is Code AND specification.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-29-2010 01:04
Milles,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!! 

It may help if we knew some perspective as to why you were wondering about rather there is a difference. 

The pure and simple answer is 'yes' there is a difference.  The exact distinction is that codes are bodies of laws and specs relate to an accurate description of how parts are to be made and inspected.  Now there is more to it than that and there may even be some overlapping areas.  But they are different.

So, how long and complete of an answer do you want?  Or is simple good enough?

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By milles Date 12-29-2010 12:54
Thank you for the information.  Specifically I was wondering what the difference is between AWS D1.1 and AWS D14.4  D14.4 lists a different acceptance criteria for UT testing than described in D1.1.  While D1.1 lists Tables 6.2 and 6.3 for both statically loaded and cyclically loaded structures with Class A-D discontinuities and their associated a acceptance/rejection criteria based on a 0.060” hole in a reference block, D14.4 lists the acceptance/rejection as a percentage of signal return based on a 3/64” hole in a test block.  The question is, is there any way to determine which criteria is more stringent?  For welds in machinery (i.e. Rotary Scrubbers), I think we should be using the D14.4 specifications, but I don’t want to make the testing more stringent than is required by D1.1 if I don’t have to.
Our company manuactures large rotating cylinders referred to as scrubbers and breakers, these can be anywhere from 9 to 16 feet in diameter.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-29-2010 14:02
Just a comment.
AWS D1.1 and AWS D14.4 are not Codes, they're Standards.
What's the difference between codes and standards? Codes are standards that are too long to be called standards; or to put it in another way, standards are codes that are too short to be called codes. 
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-29-2010 17:04 Edited 12-29-2010 17:08
I love these types of threads. They start small and grow from the seed that was planted.

First point that should be clarified is who typically writes a code, a standard, and specification?

Anyone can write a specification. A specification can be written to describe and define purchasing requirements of an item such as a pencil. It can describe the particulars of a welding process, i.e., a welding procedure specification. It can be written by an individual, a company, or a professional organization. An example of a specification would be a filler metal specification developed by a committee under the auspices of the American Welding Society or a base metal specification developed by ASTM.  A specification may only have standing within the organization that writes it or it can have national or international standing when it is developed by an organization that has national or international recognition.

A code is a special category of standards that is developed by an organization with the intention of being incorporated as a legal requirement once it is adopted by a government body. They are consensus documents where the committee membership votes on the proposed requirements or any proposed changes. Codes are organized for easy reference and can be adopted by government bodies and incorporated into legal statues, at which point they become law. Think of the building codes that reference the electrical codes, plumbing codes, welding codes, codes of standard practice, etc. Technically, the code is a standard that has legal standing. The codes also include various specifications by reference, in which case, they too become legal requirements. AWS D1.1 is an example often given as an example of a code that has legal standing once it is adopted by a governmental body such as the federal government, state government, or a municipality. Another example is the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code. Until the consensus code is adopted by a government body, it is no different in a practical sense than any other standard, that is, it has no legal standing.

A standard is an umbrella term that includes any document, i.e., codes, specifications, recommended practices, etc., that has national recognition.  The committee tasked with developing the standard has to have a diverse membership and there are formal rules for the voting process.  A standard has industry recognition, but may or may not become a legal requirement. AWS D1.1 is an example of a standard that is also a code. The “Statement of Use of AWS Standards” contained in AWS D1.1 describes the process and is well worth reading.

A National Standard has specific rules of how the document is developed and approved for publication. ANSI has been adopted as the organization that defines how nationally recognized documents are developed by organizations such as AWS or ASME. The committees charged with developing codes have a membership that represents fabricators, owners, suppliers, and interested parties. Even the general public has an opportunity to input and comment on the contents of the code. Examples of standards that are not codes, i.e., they are not intended to be incorporated in to legal statues include welding standards for machinery such as the D14.X welding standards, AWS B2.1 Specification for Welding Procedure and Performance Qualification, AWS B4.0 Standard Methods for Mechanical Testing or Welds, and of course AWS A3.0 Standard Welding Terms and Definitions.

Guides can be included under the banner of a standard. Two examples I like are AWS B1.10 Guide for the Nondestructive Examination of Welds and AWS B1.11 Guide for the Visual Examination of Welds. All the AWS documents cited are examples of American National Standards that comply with the requirements of ANSI.

I hope this helps answer your inquiry.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-29-2010 18:00
Once again a very well written answer to a question Al.

I was wondering how to state some of those differences myself while looking through some of the various referenced documents.  I think you stated and clarified the issue very well.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-29-2010 18:02
Knew you were sandbagging Al.. 

Putting this response on the "return to when somebody asks me this" box.

Edit:  My students asked me this same question a few weeks ago and I took about an hour to answer it, with copies of codes and copies of specifications..  But I diddn't really do it the justice you did even though I blathered on for a long time..
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-29-2010 18:22
Thank you for the vote of confidence gentlemen.

I probably didn't do the question the justice it deserves, but the person that posted the question can go to his dictionary for the precise technical definition.

I hope everyone is well prepared for the weekend festivities. By that I mean well rested for the evening of frivolities.

My wife has the evening all planned out well in advance. I just go along for the ride. When asked, "What is the secret to a long marriage?"

The response is simple, "Learn to say 'Yes Dear'."

Happy New Year!

Best regards - Al
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-29-2010 19:00 Edited 12-29-2010 19:04
I did miss the most important part of Milles' question. The part I missed was relating to the ultrasonic acceptance criteria.

Different welding standards (remember the term standard is an umbrella covering codes, specifications, guides, etc.) have different requirements for visual acceptance criteria, ultrasonic acceptance criteria, radiographic acceptance criteria, etc. Unfortunately the standard does not typically offer a historical perspective of the “hows and why's” the criteria was developed.

Ultrasonic examination is a comparative type test. That is, the test instrument must be calibrated using a calibration standard so that the accept/reject levels can be established. Essentially, any reflector that produces a response on the display of the test instrument is compared to the response produced by the calibration standard. It is for that reason that the calibration standard must be constructed of the same material as that being tested. Different standards require the ultrasonic technician to use different calibration standards, i.e., a standard used for inspection rough aluminum forgings is not the same material or construct as the calibration standard used for inspecting welds joining carbon steel.

The ultrasonic acceptance criteria used for a rotating component subjected to cyclic loading where the load range is small relative to the load range of a dynamically loaded structure such as a bridge crane are considerably different.  However, the number of cycles experienced by the rotating component is most like to be much greater than that experienced by the bridge crane. I would expect the rotating component would be much more sensitive to small stress risers such deep scratches, inclusions, undercut, etc. in comparison to the bridge crane due to the increases number of cycles the rotating component experiences over its useful life.

The decision to adopt the criteria of AWS D1.1 or AWS D14.4 is judgment call engineering should be involved with. Perhaps the non-rotating components can be welded using AWS D1.1 as the criteria and D14.4 for the rotating elements. A simplified means of comparing the two criteria is to compare the amplitude of the signal produced by the two holes. The amplitude of the 3/32 inch diameter hole will be greater than the 1/16 inch diameter hole because more of the sound energy is reflected off the large diameter hole. However, it is not a simple ratio of one hole diameter to another. You are comparing the reflective area of two round surfaces, which involves exponential relationships. In other words if you compare the area of a 1 inch x 1 inch surface to that of a 2 inch x 2 inch surface the ratio of the linear dimensions is 1/2, but the ratio of one area to the other is 1/4.

I suggest you retain the services of a UT technician that is a qualified Level III. I would recommend that you insist on the individual be qualified in accordance to ASNT's ACCP program meaning that the individual has passed the ASNT standardized test rather than someone that is qualified to in-house requirements that permits the employer to write their own examinations and allows the employer to modify the recommendations of SNT-TC-1A. You can easily confirm whether or not the individual has passed ASNT's ACCP or ASNT's Level III by going to the ASNT's website and looking under the section "Certification". You do need to know the name of the individual and the state where he or she lives. You can also look at the site to see who in your area is certified through ASNT as a Level III.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-30-2010 20:28
Are you talking about Amateur drinking night Al? Btw, I'm long retired from being a professional drinker, so I'm allowed to call it "Amateur Night." ;)

A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AL, AND EVERYONE ELSE IN HERE ALONG WITH ALL OF YOUR FAMILIES TOO!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-29-2010 18:34 Edited 12-30-2010 15:06
Now that Al has given you a very excellent reply as to the difference between codes and specifications (and standards as well), we need to see how that applies to your more direct question when you gave us more details.

My personal opinion is that you should be referencing D14.4 as it is the 'Standard' that applies most directly to your application.  It would be a 'Code' with legal weight if it were applied to your application by a govermental body in some fashion.  Such as, on occassion heavy equipment and trucks for use in highway construction must be welded and maintained according to D14.X (I believe it is .3 but don't have any of that here at the moment) mandated by the state dept of transportation that has jurisdiction.  Also, cranes can be mandated to use 'Code' D14.1 (again I believe that number is correct) by a government agency.

If you are using D14.4 because it applies most closely to the item you are manufacturing but it is not 'mandated' by a govt dept of some sort then you have some freedom to incorporate whatever standards you like into your inhouse QC program.  But then you would not be using D14.4 in it's purest and intended fashion.

If you are setting a standard for customers to be able to reference and to satisfy any possibility of govt regs then you should use and stick strickly to D14.4 in all it's clauses and provisions.  If that means doing the required UT to stricker standards then that is how it must be.

Just my two tin pennies worth.  Hope I didn't just cloud things up after Al's very well worded explanation of the differences between codes and specifications.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-29-2010 19:47
I just looked at the listing of D14.X specifications. It appears D14.6 is the correct specification for rotating elements.

Since the question appears to be initiated by a manufacturer who seems to have the latitude to select an appropriate welding standard, I assume there is no contractual obligation imposed by a customer.

The adoption of one welding standard over another should be based on the nature of the weldments and how it will be used. D1.1 is primarily intended for steel structures. The D14.X specifications may be similar to D1.1 at first look, but many of the requirements have been modified to include materials not typically used in buildings and reflect the design stresses used. For instance, machinery that is subject to static loads, but must be very rigid with very little deflection utilize allowable stresses on the order of 3 ksi to 5 ksi rather than 21 ksi to 27 ksi allowed for steel structures. The permitted deflection for a building are much greater than that permitted for a machine required to hold precise tolerances. The lower allowable design stress means deeper undercut, more porosity, etc. can be tolerated without paying a penalty. Likewise, the size of the welds can be smaller for a given thickness because the stresses on the welds are usually rather low. Low cost fillet welds can be used rather than higher cost groove welds. On the other hand, rotating elements subject to fatigue loads may have to meet acceptance criteria more stringent than that provided by D1.1 due to the nature of the loads.

The manufacturer has to be careful to select the welding standard that is applicable to the nature of the work because it is expensive to meet stringent acceptance criteria when there is no need to do so. The competitive advantage can be lost when the weld quality is needlessly too high.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-30-2010 15:24
Milles,

Along with the added info that Al and myself added about your application, I would like to give you a little more based upon personal past experience.  I have worked on large heavy equipment on log yards throughout the Pacific Northwest.  Equipment most definitely being stressed in ways that a structural building being constructed to D1.1 never begins to see.  Those kinds of forces are not even present in an earthquake and need to be dealt with completely different than what is required within D1.1. 

For example, the way welds can be ended at the edge of a stiffener plate being welded into the inside of a wide flange beam.  If I ended a weld that way on a log stacker it would start to break the first day and within a week things would literally be coming apart.

How you transfer stresses, how you grind/sand to get minimal stress risers going in the proper direction, how much you restrict movement, the size and location of weld discontinuities, and many other factors that hopefully engineers and more educated and experienced people than I have examined thouroughly as they developed these various codes/standards and/or specifications.

So be very careful about applying the correct set of standards and using it in it's complete context to get the best possible end product and make sure your customers won't need to repair certain items before they even start using your product.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-31-2010 15:19
Hello Henry;

Thanks for the happy thoughts and good wishes for the New Year.

I hope you are in good health and things are improving for you. Nothing can replace good health and feeling good.

Happy New Year to you and everyone else.

Best regards - Al
- By milles Date 01-04-2011 18:21
Thank you very much Al and Welderbrent.  The information you provided helped greatly.  I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.  I am a new CWI so I have a lot to learn yet.  I am glad there are knowledgeable people on here that I can turn to help answer my questions.  Thanks again guys!

Les
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / code vs. specification

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