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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Austenitic Stainless Steel Wire Brushes
- - By TubeFab Date 12-29-2010 16:59
I was wondering if anyone could explain what constitutes an austenitic stainless steel brush. My lead engineer and I have been going back and forth about this. Is it a brush made of an austenitic stainless steel which will become magnetic during the manufacturing of the brush or is it a brush that is non-magnetic?

FYI, this is in regards to a requirement in D17.1 para 5.5.1: "CAUTION: Austenitic stainless steel wire brushes or carbon steel wire brushes may be used on carbon or low alloy steels. Only austenitic stainless steel wire brushes shall be used on all other materials being welded..."

Thanks
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 12-29-2010 17:28
I think the caution comes from an attempt to avoid cross contamination.  Cross contamination by leaving carbon deposits behind is not a concern with carbon steel whereas it might hurt corrosion resistance with some stainless alloys.  All the stainless procedures I work with say to use stainless brushes only.
Parent - - By TubeFab Date 12-29-2010 17:49
Thanks OBEWAN but we understand the cross contamination issue. We only use stainless steel brushes and color code them to the base material their used on to prevent cross contamination. We are just confused as how to view an austenitic stainless steel wire brush.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 12-29-2010 18:02
I have never heard about a specific requirement for austenitic stainless only.  I have just heard the word stainless used.  Maybe austenitic is better because it can take more flexing or is softer or something like that.  I am learning from this thread now too.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-29-2010 19:15
Since you understand what cross contamination is, I'll leave it aside and go further.
There are three classes of stainless steels:
Austenitic. They're non magnetic and show an austenitic structure at any temparature. They're identified as Series 300 by AISI (American Iron and Steel Institute)
Ferritic. They're magnetic and show a ferritic structure at any temperature. They're classified as Series 400 by AISI.
Martensitic. They're magnetic and show a martensitic structure at any temperature. They're also classified as Series 400 by AISI.

So, why should the brush be austenitic? Because ferritic and martensitic stainless steels have a carbon content similar to that of carbon steel, so it would be useless to use a ferritic or martensitic stainless steel brush.
On the other hand, austenitic stainless steel has a carbon content that is much lower than that of carbon steel, and this is the reason for  using it.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By TubeFab Date 12-29-2010 20:58
Ok, since our brushes were made out of 302 stainless steel all we need is a certificate of conformance from our vendor stating so. I guess we got confused interpreting the requirement because the brushes are magnetic (magnetized during manufacturing) even though they were made from an austenitic stainless steel. Thank you for your input.
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 12-30-2010 06:13
300 series steels can still be magnetic.  They're known as austenitic stainless steel, but aren't necessarily entirely in the austenitic phase.  Austenite is just its primary phase.
Technically, the austenite is non-magnetic, but through heat treatment, or cold working (such as when drawing wires), 300 series stainless steel can have grains in the ferritic or martinsitic phases (among others), which are magnetic.

302 is at the lower alloy range of the 300 stainless steels, and is more likely to end up magnetic than 316 for example.
Still, it shouldn't be strongly magnetic.

Unfortunately, your problem is an issue of syntax and semantics, because the phrase "Austenitic stainless steel" could be up to interpretation, whereas "300 series stainless steel" is much more clear.  Those two terms aren't quite interchangeable, but that's OK, because all 300 series stainless steels are considered austenitic, but there are other grades of stainless outside of the 300 family that are austenitic too (although the 300 series alloys will probably be the most familiar):

http://www.alleghenytechnologies.com/ludlum/pages/products/xq/asp/G.1/qx/ProductLine.html
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-30-2010 14:12
The question is pretty much moot in that I do not believe they even manufacture stainless steel brushes that are not austenitic.
You have martensitic, ferritic, duplex, and precipitation hardening. I do not believe they make brushes out of any of those.
I think its an unfortunate choice of language for the standard.
Parent - - By jd369 (**) Date 12-31-2010 02:12
It's not a moot point when the NADCAP auditor asks you to prove that they are in fact austenitic ss wire brushes. I would get the CofC for the brushes and not worry about it. Prior to our last NADCAP audit we discussed putting locks on the filler wire disposal tubes but decided that we were going too far. Sure enough the auditor wanted to write us up for not making them completely irretrievable. I argued that in a welding shop there is really no way of making them irrevtrievale and avoided the finding but I'll have locks on them for the next audit.
regards
Jim
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-01-2011 16:51
One of my aerospace clients purchases empty 1 gallon paint cans. A 5/8 hole in put into the flat cover and the cover is tack welded to the can so it cannot be removed. When the can is full, it is simply tossed into the scap bin.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 01-02-2011 18:12

> I argued that in a welding shop there is really no way of making them irretrievable


That depends on how you look at the problem.
If you look at it as a container with a one-way door that things can never return from, that's not going to happen.
All you really need, is tamper evident packaging.  Something like those paint cans, where once it goes in, it may be easy to take things out, but if something is removed, it will be easily visible.  A permanent sticker applied as a seal would be more effective than a lock. 
In my line of work, we'd have a sheet of serialized stickers and a notebook.  You'd record the sticker number, date, and initial the line when the sticker was cut when the container was dumped, and what new sticker number seal was applied.  Takes no more time than finding the key for a padlock (especially if you have the book and a pen tied to the container).  Give that book to the auditor and let them choke on it.

I deal with auditors way too often.  There are some tricks to get through easily.  Be very direct.  Don't ever give an answer that could lead them to learning a new question.  Don't provide any information they didn't ask for (that usually applies, even if its something you do "above and beyond" your requirements, because then they'll be asking to verify that procedure on their next visit).  And when they ask a stupid question like this, snowball them with documentation.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Austenitic Stainless Steel Wire Brushes

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