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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Can it be done?I'm a novice!
- - By fosters3 Date 10-02-2002 00:28
Hello,
I am a very inexperienced welder. The only welding I've done is with 1/8" rod DC(+). I am pretty good with that
but that is as far as I go.
Here's my situation:
I'm welding a nose onto a car (thin German steel) and want to know if it can be done with the tools I have.
Welder: Miller Thunderbolt XL 300/200 Amp cc.ac/dc welding power source.
output: ac/dc
volts: 30/25
amps: 300/200
duty cycle: 20%
max ocv: 80
It has 4 settings: AC 180-300A AC 40-200A
DC (+)
DC (-) The rods I have are: 3/32 7014 Sureweld sw-15 IP Heat#w-54101
3/32 7018 AtomArc Heat#112574
1/8 I use this on heavy steel.
I did some practice welding on a fender w/ the7014 with the setting at about 45 on the dc + scale which seemed to work although no to pretty. Obviously I either burn through or it doesn't seem to want to weld at all. "45" worked best for
that rod. I've been told I should "tig' or "mig weld it but I know nothing about that nor do I have access to those
types of welders. I was also told I might not be able to weld a "path" but instead may have to spot weld with the
tools I have. Question: Is there another (perhaps smaller) rod I can get to use with this welder along with maybe another
setting such as an AC setting?
I know I must sound pretty ignorant to all you experienced welders, but at least I'm honest to admit my downfalls.
Mechanically, I can fix just about anything (diesels,hydraulics,etc.), I just lack any real welding experience.
I really want to complete this job with this welder I have access to. If it's possible can you direct me exactly what to do
along with the correct rod to go along with this welder for this application?
Also could you please tell me the right way to do this with the right tools? Maybe I can borrow or rent the right
welder and purchase the proper welding materials to go along with it.
THANK YOU ALL!
Jon
Jon




either burn through or don't really weld at all. At the 45 setting

Parent - By dee (***) Date 10-02-2002 01:10
Jon,
Yes, it can be done.

First, safety issues; NO BRAKE CLEANER OR CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON SOLVENTS for cleaning, but clean the steel thoroughly. I use acetone and believe it to be safe; it is so volitile it is hardly an issue. Other cleaners particularly in automotive fields can generate the deadly gas phosgene, outlawed during WWI. I have heard of automatic dishwasher detergent and other soap type chemicals being used as well, but rust now becomes an issue due to the water.

You may want to take note of and consider new adhesive bonding techniques gaining popularity, which hold many advantages over welding in respect to controlling difficult issues including distortion control, rust resistance, etc. I cannot answer questions about them as I am only passingly familiar. They may or may not be appropriate. Crash safety is an important consideration.

Beyond the issue of burn through you will need to control warpage and distortion. Get plenty of practice before you start out on the actual job.

You can control burn-through by reducing the power, reducing the diameter of the electrode (which permits further reduartion of power), and/or by using a backing- a plate or bar of aluminium or copper in close contact with the sheetmetal to help absorb the heat... a good weld supply shop or bodyshop supply may have some products they can recommend.
I gain some control by modifying my technique to suit the application, as well.
You might gain some advantage by changing to a straight polarity (DC Electrode Negative) when using an AC or DCEN electrode. The negaitve pole tends to get the most of the heat from the arc. I will spare you the laws of physics governing this phenomenon, but there will be less penetration into the sheetmetal and more heat on the rod; it will weld differently (perhaps not better, but differently) and may be an advantage.

By ALL MEANS be sure your filter is the PROPER SHADE to allow you to see what is going on within the arc; you MUST be able to see what you are doing. The new gold reflective filters reflect more IR heat and keep it out of your eyes. It permits a bit more flexibility with lense shades and means less discomfort at lighter shades; your lense may need to be darker to see into the arc.

Distortion control is another issue. Technique (length of bead and where you run them and in what order) is important; it depends a lot on the shape you are welding. You may get some insight from a distortion problem on a trailer one of us was discussing in the "shop-talk" forum; try "goose"'s post I think. Unfortunately sheet, particularly thin sheet, can be more troublesome than hollow steel tube sections.

Be aware of additional issues which may arise if BMW used any special high strength alloy steels for their body panels.

Good luck, and I hope someone can lead you farther toward your goal. Note also that I have never heard anyone ridiculed or laughed at for asking a question here. We all are familiar with the learning process, so wellcome!

Regards,
d
Parent - - By Goose (**) Date 10-02-2002 01:31
This is one area of welding where I have a decent amount of experience with. In addition to restoring/rebuilding my race/show car, I also work part time (I'm a full time Mr. Mom) helping out at a good friends body shop. I mainly do the fabrication/restoration/welding work.

We use Mig welding on sheetmetal mostly, although we do use the panel adhesive in certain areas.

I personally would never want to try and weld sheetmetal with a stick welder. I typically have to pulse the Mig arc on/off to control the puddle which would be very difficult to accomoplish with a stick (not impossible, but quite difficult). We try to use plug welds on complete panel replacements to duplicate how the factory assembled the sheetmetal. This makes for a strong, yet attractive job.

I just finished a bunch of work on a '70 Mercedes Benz convertable. The German cars are definately assembled differently than the American cars. If you give us an idea of what specific parts your going to weld on, one of use should be able to give you an idea of how it can be done the best. Typically, I look for the factory spot welds/seams and drill out/cut panels out at these locations and use these same locations to weld the new panel back in.
Parent - - By fosters3 Date 10-02-2002 03:14
Thank you for your responses. Could you describe MIG welding? A buddy said there are "feed" types or is the "feed" type the only type? Essentially, I removed the out fenders and cut (sawzall) the inner fenders in front of the shock towers
down through the unibody subframe. I cut along a return brace in one area so I will be welding a 3rd piece intersecting
to 2 others ( kind of like a "T", the new piece being the top right of the "T"). The frame rail appears to be a more
substantial peice of material. I had planned on "patching" material over the joints to strengthen them. Acetone IS my cleaner of choice being in the marine industry for 15 years. What is "panel adhesive" and does it apply to my situation?
When you say "plug welds", is that synonomous to "spot welds"? Or is that when you have a hole over another peice of material and you follow the circumference? Most of the welding requires the "butting" of two edges, tacking them
and then patch over them. Another suggestion was to screw pieces together, then remove the screws one at a time and
tack the holes.Is there a smaller rod I can buy that might be more effective? Should I clamp a peice of aluminum on the back side to absorb some of the heat? I have never used this welder on the DC(-) position. The previous reply suggested advantages to this for my job. This reverses the polarity so its not so hot as the ground absorbs more heat? Please explain
what to expect when welding in the DC(-) position.
I hope my ignorance isn't annoying, but I'm anxious to learn for my little projects and I don't have the time or $$ to go to a welding school. I can weld (1/8" stick) pretty well on our excavator and Bobcat skidsteer, it's the small stuff that makes me sweat. Once again, what is the smallest stick I can use with this welder as I'm DETERMINED to at least try it before I have to go rent a mig welder?
Thanks again,
Jon
Parent - By Jay Krout (*) Date 10-02-2002 03:28
Jon; 1/16 rods can be gottenat weld supply stores,Try geting 6011 they are an aesy rod to weld sheetmetal, you probably will have yoturn your machine down as low as it can go. Find some scrap stuff to experiment wiht before you tackle the job. Good luck and hav fun with it, this stuff developes character, most everey welder has character ( or is a character: ) J Krout
Parent - By Wildturkey (**) Date 10-02-2002 11:40
here is a link to teach you a little about GMAW (MIG) welding
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c4200.pdf
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Can it be done?I'm a novice!

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