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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Stack of Dimes
- - By diverdileo (*) Date 02-04-2011 19:49
There has been concern that GTAW welding with out producing the dime effect may be improper welding proceedure. Some of the welders in the show have produced beads that are smooth in appearance with no dime effect. There appears to be no other visual diffects or lack of fusion. There has been rumors that the smooth bead method may effect heat disortion and may have different penetration than the dime effect method.  A recent article had this to say about the dime effect:  

The stack of dimes look is usually achieved (for me anyway) by waiting a little longer while forming the current puddle crater, causing it to get a little deeper before adding the filler rod. Then when I finally fill the puddle crater I slightly over fill it. Then when advancing the puddle & forming the next crater some of the excess filler is drug along & becomes part of the next new crater/puddle. I guess one way to think about the two puddles is with the stack of dimes puddle your dragging the puddle along at it's leading edge by digging a deep hole & filling it over & over (more filler each "dip", but fewer total "dips" overall). And the smooth puddle is more like pushing the already half filled puddle along (less filler each "dip" but using more total "dips" overall).

Please Post comments and justifications (Pros and Cons) for the smooth bead effect vs. the dime effect in tig welding (No pulsing used).
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 02-05-2011 00:44
Hello diverdileo, the particular bead description that you have described and inquired about(if I understood correctly) shouldn't have an appreciable effect on weld integrity other than if the ripples were spaced so far apart that they were making the puddles have notches between them as the weld progressed. These notches could possibly be viewed as stress risers and pose a problem with cracking or other metallurgical issues. I just reread your questions/statements and would further comment regarding penetration/distortion, GTAW is rather unique from the standpoint that you have a number of variables that affect the finished weld deposit that other processes don't. One: you can either run a lot of amperage and move along quickly to achieve a particular weld bead width/height or you could run lesser amperage and travel more slowly, and yet, essentially still produce basically the same visual bead dimension. Throw filler metal addition into the mix and different styles/techniques and you could still produce similar visual results, yet considerably different metallurgical and physical bead/basemetal results(ie. penetration, stresses, weld interface, HAZ differences). I do somewhat agree that a dab vs. continuous(smooth) bead style may affect distortion and heat input, yet there are so many other variables that I wouldn't apply a blanket statement to one being better than the other. Different operators could likely use either method and still achieve completely acceptable results concerning distortion/heat input etc. I will be curious to see what others will have to say. If you could clarify your questions any, I believe that myself, as well as others, might better be able to answer. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By diverdileo (*) Date 02-05-2011 10:51
alot of useful information. No specific application is implied. I understand that both may be acceptable and I am too looking forward to see what others have to reply. I am curious if it matters in any application. Would it make a difference in thin sheet metal or in heavy plate? Woudl it matter on cetain metals? I have heard one might be more penetrating than the other and one might have more cleaning action. Part of my concern is our local weld procedures do not allow welding with out the addition of filler metal or "washing the bead" to smooth it out. It is difficult to tell between the laywire technique and washing. Also our local weld procedure does not allow pulsing which also can produce a time effect. It seems washing, laywire and pulsing are oposite spectrums in welding technique and dabbing with out pulsing or washing is the norm.

Thanks for the response. Looking forward to hearing back.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-05-2011 00:53
We need alot more information from you.. As Allan mentioned, before a real authoratitive answer can come.

On carbon steels and stainless steels the "laywire" technique is for the most part equal mechanically to the dip technique.

The laywire is what you would refer to as the smooth appearance.. The dip technique would be the dimes.  Always good to be aware of correct terms.

for lap joints and tee joints that are single pass and for many open root welds the lay wire technique is pretty common..  Pipe welders who produce open root welds on pipe use a technique called "walking the cup"  the first passes on cup walked welds often use the lay wire technique in order to keep a controlled amount of filler in the joint.

The only time (other than cosmetics) that the dip technique *must* be used in order to get superior mechanical properties is with AC welding of alumninum and magnesium alloys... The lay wire technique defeats the *cleaning action* produced by the DCEP side of the AC cycle.

Still ... Without knowing exactly what your trying to accomplish.. it's difficult to say with authority if one technique is superior.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 02-05-2011 08:51 Edited 02-05-2011 08:54
The whole stack of dimes thing is a non issue with the newer Pulse tig machines.  I've seen pulse tig. aluminum corner and fillet welds look like they were formed in a press brake and passed all tests with no issues.
Parent - - By diverdileo (*) Date 02-05-2011 10:53
I am mostly refering to dab vs. laywire with out the use of pulse, but I am still curious why a local weld procedure may prohibit pulsing.
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 02-05-2011 18:27 Edited 02-05-2011 18:53
It can be dificult under some conditions for a welder to be absolutely certain that the root is melting and full fusion taking place when wire is layed in the joint.  With a dipping technique the welder can see the root melt in prior to each addtion of filler.

With a laywire technique the puddle and wire can protect the base metal from the heat of the arc.  Think of a root pass on a lap joint made of moderately thick aluminum, welded with a large diameter fill rod... very easy to unknowingly get LOP/LOF with this technique with this particular set of circumstances.

It is not uncommon on destructive tests of heavy wall pipe weld samples to find lack of fusion between beads when the lay wire techique is used.  If the amperage is too low, or the fill rod too big in relation to the bead width being welded, LOF is likely to occur.

When I weld pipe 5G and 6G, laying the wire and walking the cup, during fill passes I revert to a dipping technique on the top of the the pipe to ensure proper fusion.  This is because in the flat position the molten filler wants to run out ahead of the arc, where it may prevent the arc from bringing adequate heat to melt the base metal.  I also make the welds on the "hot, fast, and thin (meaning shallow)" side.

That said good welds can be made with all the common techniques, and I use them all depending on circumstances.  But overall, a marginal or inexperienced welder is probably less likely to have LOP/LOF problems when dipping the rod.

My guess is that if a stack of dimes look is required it is for one of two reasons:  Either for ornamental purposes, or (without a pulser) as a visual indicator that a dipping technique had been used.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 02-05-2011 19:56
I read a article awhile back addressing the pulse prohibition thing and it boiled down to not being able to precisely monitor the machines output.  The equipment needed is cost prohibitive and each manufacturer has different parameters for each machine.  I guess the engineers and metallurgists are working on the problem.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-13-2011 18:42
Remember all automated GTAW is done with a continue wire feed and will have a smooth bead appearance. Thus it is perfectly possible to do a wide array of welding with out the display of ripples.

to my knowledge there is no technical reason why one bead appearance is superior.  I can think of a few specific cases where the engineer or  shop experience may dictate that you don't want people to lay in wire or dab.  I was personally taught to always dab, later on in pipe welding I would use the lay wire technique for fill passes where appearance wasn't critical.

I don't think it is appropriate to reject or hassle welders that meet all mechanical and NDT requirements for using a smoother bead appearance. unless the weld beads have a certain visual req.

Depending on the weld joint I would instruct my welders to either lay in the wire or dab. from a heat standpoint laying in wire usually cools the puddle more or limits penetration which usually explains the lack of fusion defects. The benefit is that it produces more fill or helps with excessive penetration.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Stack of Dimes

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