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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / OSHA's authority?
- - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-08-2011 03:17
Today the company we are working for told me I had to take one of my grinders out of service for a bit of melted insulation on the cord. I would not have been using it on that job if I had known. So I was respectful and told him I would put it away and fix it later. He asked where I was going to put it. I told him I was going to lock it up in one of my boxes. He replied by saying " If OSHA shows up they can make you unlock that box and will fine you." He also said they could go through the cab if they wanted to. I told him it would be a cold day in hell before they got the keys from me to look in the cab. My question is can they do this. I mean if a tool is not in use what danger does it pose. If they can do this why not give them guns and swear them in to "observe and flee" like the police.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 03:22
Are you a Contract Rig Welder ?
Parent - - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-08-2011 03:30
No sir. I work for a bridge company that is sub contracting for a infrastructure company. I saw your post that said independant contract workers are exempt from osha regs if they are not posing a danger to anyone else.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 03:34
If you work for the Bridge Company, You are NOT exempt from OSHA rules. I do not beleive they can go into your truck. They would need a Warrant. However, you do fall under their jurisdiction and rules.
Parent - - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-08-2011 03:42
Yeah, I have taken an OSHA 10 class and am sure I fall under the rules. I just don't think they can enter my truck either. I think this saftey guy has bought in to alot of the urban myths about what they can do. I know the grinder was a violation, but if it is in my truck locked to me it poses no risk. If I am the only one with the key to the box it is 'locked out" so to say. I understand they can do alot though. Especially know that they are totaly self funded.
Parent - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-08-2011 03:48
By myths I mean like the old timers that tell you how many people are poured in the Hoover Dam. They were too woried about the integrity of the concrete to let a human sized void be left in it. Just because Willie sang about it don't mean it's true.
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 02-08-2011 03:26
Not sure they have authority to search locked areas, just to observe work in progress.  Put a tag on the grinder and mark it "DANGER - DO NOT USE UNTIL REPAIRED", then sign and date the tag.  Then if it is found, it will be obvious that action was taken to prevent inadvertent use.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 03:29
OSHA has NO Jurisdiction over Contract Welders. IF in fact you are deemed a TRUE Contract Employee. Be VERY careful when talking to them. They are trained to ask you "TRAP" questions to determine if in fact you are Contract or Employee.
Parent - - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-08-2011 03:35
This is a sore subject for me. I hate seeing a government org like them get so much power to take our money. Don't get me wrong I know that saftey is priority number one but they can blow it out of proportion. The thing that I hate the most is hearing all the urban ledgends about what they can do. That is why I like to know all I can about the laws.
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 02-08-2011 05:43
It's easy just do like I do and disregaurd all authority and carry a gun.
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 02-14-2011 00:24
RE: stanantonio

Comments like this might be the reason why YOU were banned from this forum.  Not to mention the "hobby" list you posted which consisted of "shootin politicians".
You are one sick person.  Just for the record, I didn't report you to the AWS moderators.  I'm willing to bet that AWS has more than likely reported YOU to people who protect politicians.
Parent - By jpill (**) Date 02-14-2011 00:47
troll
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-14-2011 02:19
Here ya go !!
Parent - - By Skaggydog (**) Date 02-14-2011 17:27
Is that 2 cans one for each troll?
Parent - By jpill (**) Date 02-14-2011 18:28
I think cactus just wanted to do like my grandma used to with the old "black flag" pump can, "wet im down so you can be sure e's dead!"
Parent - - By chitown hustler (*) Date 02-08-2011 09:21
no osha can't enter the cab of your truck or a private building!!! tell them to get a search warrant. (which they can and will do) if osha walks up and says you commited xyz safety violation and are working in a unsafe manner they have caught you red handed! don't try and deny anything! they have you on tape or have the pictures to prove what you did wrong. if they say you did, you did it, don't make matters worse by trying to BS your way out of the situation. osha is very good about sitting down the block or 1/4 mile away taking pictures or video.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 02-08-2011 11:55
Most all companies have a clause in their hiring documentation or contracts in which they pre-arrange signed permission from individuals for searching their persons, their tool boxes and their vehicles, or anything else on company property. Refusal to comply results in immediate dismissal.

Tim
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 02-08-2011 12:57
"OSHA has NO Jurisdiction over Contract Welders" OSHA has jurisdiction over whom you are contracted to. Anyone who has ever been on a job where OSHA has showed up knows that when they walk around a job site they don't fine individuals they fine the employer for the action of an individual. We hire rig welders all the time, and they have to work under our safety program. For example if an OSHA inspector see's a rig welder working off a struct. 20 feet off the ground with no harness and points it our to us the contractor,  we can't say "wait a min. Mr. OSHA he/she is a contract welder and you have no jurisdiction over them. That's silly. Mr OSHA will just fine us for his/her actions. Secondly, anyone who has ever been on a job where OSHA shows up knows that they don't ask to look in people trucks, or look in peoples boxes. They are looking for non-complient safety issues, such as ladders being inspected, scafolding installed correctly, tripping hazards, safety harnesses being used correctly, and inspected, temp. electrical items such as bang-boards are built to NEC requirements, GFCI's being used and on and on and on! They don't care about what's in your truck.

Now after saying all that I'm sure there will be all kinds of urban myths of how OSHA showed up on a job like a bunch of storm troopers and searched every box and truck on site. I'm only saying from experience that when OSHA has showed up it has been about non-complient safety issues.

Jim
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 13:53 Edited 02-08-2011 16:00
I would have to disagree on the Jurisdiction Matter. I just finished a Job in Austin Texas. One of the RIG Welders had a problem with the conditions in which we were working. (it was wet and muddy) He had a 500 hr OSHA Cert. He left the Job. He then called the US Dept of Labor and OSHA. He turned in a list of Violations against EVERYONE on the Jobsite including Myself and the General Contractor (A rather large company out of Houston) My Company was Subcontracted and the Rig Welders were My Subs. (each Welder signs an MSA and a Contract per job.) OSHA showed up with a Safety Officer and a Compliance Officer. After 5 hrs of Interrogation of EACH and EVERY Welder on site, They deemed that we are Each, a Contractor to ourselves. They have NO jurisdiction. OSHA is a Federal Entity. The State of Texas has given the right to "opt out" of Workers Comp. However, It has to be done LEGALLY. If all waivers are signed and proper documentation is in place. It can be done. IF, you are a TRUE Contract Employee, Then OSHA has no jurisdiction. I have been through the process. I know first hand what happens an what can and can not be done. We were also required to follow the General Contractors Safety Program. However, OSHA CAN NOT enforce it nor fine us (contract welders) for violating it. They can fine the General Contractor for his Actions, not mine. I am nor their EMPLOYEE (which is the key word in this whole dicussion) When I Sub-Contract to a General, I have Subs, which means I have NO employees. Each Rig Welder is his own self. Which means HE has no Employees. So, OSHA has no juridiction if you have NO employees. Check it out. I can post the Names and Numbers of the Regional Directors of OSHA here in Texas if you would like. Now, If you hire a Rig Welder and pay him a Split check, that means you hold out Taxes. He is NOT a Contract Welder. He is an Employee. At that point, OSHA DOES have Jurisdiction.
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 02-08-2011 14:11
That is what I said. They won't fine people that work for a contractor either. They will fine the General contractor. OSHA does not care if your a sub of a sub of a sub to the 5th degree. They will fine the contractor not the individual. On the job you just spoke about, if the OSHA person sees as you put it "a TRUE Contract Employee" doing something un-safe and it is worthy of a fine. They will fine the contractor not the TRUE Contract Employee". For some reason you seem to think that the term TRUE Contract Employee has a certain amount of magic pixie dust associated with it. And it does not. :)

Jim
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 14:31 Edited 02-08-2011 14:40
It Does Have "Magic Dust". It means that even Though "I" hold the SubContract, OSHA CANNOT fine me. The General can not be fined for my actions if I am a Sub Contractor with a clear definitions as a Sub. Example: On the same job in Austin, long before We arrived, The Boring Subcontractor had an Accident. It resulted in a Man getting his Leg cut off by a Bore Machine due to unsafe Practice. The SUB was fined because he had EMPLOYEES that were not trained to operate the Equipment. The General was not fined nor held responsible in any way.
Parent - - By Rig Hand (***) Date 02-08-2011 17:33
Question- I thought you could have up to 3 employees (yourself + 2) and still not fall under OSHA's regulations. 4 or more employees and you had to comply.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 17:45
If you have 1 Employee you fall under their Jurisdiction. 9 or more you have to do their paperwork and fill out a bunch of forms and MUCHO documentation,
Parent - - By chitown hustler (*) Date 02-08-2011 20:40
1 worker you fall under osha.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-08-2011 20:58
Yes. With one Employee, you fall under OSHA rules
Parent - By Rig Hand (***) Date 02-09-2011 01:06
Thankyou
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 02-13-2011 22:07
Do people lose legs often on jobs sites you frequent Cactus?
Anyone ever get killed on one of your jobs Cactus?
Just a normal days work in Texas I guess.  Legs getting cut off.  Of well....shrug, spit.
Parent - By jpill (**) Date 02-14-2011 00:40
Don't you have a goat to go feed????
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-14-2011 01:30
Well Troll, I guess you cant read. I plainly Stated that the Incident happened LONG before I was ever there. And no, no one has ever been killed on one of my jobs while working with me. I remember when I worked in PA. Chesapeake Energy had the nickname "One A Week Chesapeake". Kinda blows your "The North is Safer" Idea of of the Water, don't it. Still the first loser aren't you .
Parent - - By jpill (**) Date 02-14-2011 01:42
Cactus, Cactus, Cactus......if you feed him after the spray he regains his strength.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-14-2011 02:36
Sorry, Let me fix that !
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-14-2011 14:05
Cactus I'm glad you finally found some Troll spray but please tell that stuff isn't made in China..!!!  LOL
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-14-2011 14:12
Made in TEXAS !
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-14-2011 14:18
Awesome..!!  In that case I may want a box of it just for when I run into Trolls down the road..!!

  I think you may want to UP you formula concentration though... These forum trolls seem to be building up an immunity to it quick..!! LOL

  RC
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-08-2011 14:19
I think you nailed it. The Osha 30 class I took the first day, first page the guy showed on who Osha protects specifically stated it did not protect business owners or federal employees, then I wondered why I was there. But for $30 to get the training I wasn't gonna complain.

I was a sub on a job and Osha sat across the street watching the site. Then came around for a look. I was grinding away on some tube rail with my guardless grinder while the guy I was sub'd out to was up climbing on some ironwork, about 8-10 feet off the ground. They sited him for a violation, no fall protection. Told him he needed to check into that because he was the owner of the company. His guys working with him had the appropriate fall protection. That's been a few years ago and not sure what ever happened with that. I do remember that the job was a flurry of activity then somebody walked by me and said, "Osha's onsite" and I remember it getting very quiet after that for about 20 minutes. Seems like everybody went on break!

On the flip side a job I was on last summer the guy that owned the company had to do everything the GC had outlined in their safety program, tie off, hard hats etc. It wasn't Osha he was worried about it was the contractors safety guy who would give you a warning then next warning was you loading your gear and being kicked off the job.

Wet and muddy?? Hahaha! This time of year isn't that considered normal work conditions!
Parent - - By hojopens3 (**) Date 02-08-2011 13:05
just tag it "out of service"
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-08-2011 13:30
I agree...  Out of service tags are the way to go.

From time to time if a power cord is in really bad shape and I know I need to replace it, I'll just cut it off until I have time to do the job... This makes it pretty clear that the tool is out of service.
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-08-2011 14:58
It's a little different but not much... When I worked at a mine and MSHA would come in they would always find something they didn't like.

  All we had to do was take that item whatever it was, conveyor belt, wiring, crusher guards, belt guard or whatever else they could find and put a lock out tag out, Tag on it till that item was fixed..

   Most of the time we didn't have to shut down all the plants or even the plant with the problem we just had to put the offending item out of service till it was fixed..

  I have never dealt with OSHA but MSHA is a pickle.. They made us take an 8hr safety coarse every year... Mostly just pictures of guys that crawled into crushers to clean them out while running and got killed or the guy that was working on a loader while running and it squashed him...

   I never saw a true accident picture just people doing things that common sense should keep you away from..

   I did however have a ground wire come off a gen set pumping out 440 3phase and I just grazed the edge of the plant while walking by and it knocked the ever loving @$%% out of me.. I don't know what would have happened if I had got hold of something..

  I don't have a problem with OSHA or MSHA but I think they came about due to idiots not using common sense...

  They are a necessary evil sad to say..!!

    RC
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-08-2011 15:55
"I don't have a problem with OSHA or MSHA but I think they came about due to idiots not using common sense..."

That is so true! Whenever I'm out with my kids or best time is at Christmas when they open the packages and everything has that warning. Hey Stupid don't do this. I laugh and ask if they know why the sticker is there. Then tell them because some idiot "tested" it first requiring that the sticker now be placed on there to protect the senseless.
Parent - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-09-2011 01:17
Like the sticker on my welder that says don't run ithis machine in a house.
Parent - - By weldwade (***) Date 02-08-2011 16:47
Out of Service tags will cover your backside on broken tools or equipment. They must be filled out properly with DATE, REASON and PERSON who is tagging the equipment out. Lock Out may also need to be performed depending on the equipment and its location, size etc.

I do have to disagree with you Lawrence, cutting the cord off a power tool will not cover that tool. MSHA loves this one and OSHA is following. It MUST be tagged out to cover the tool that is the only way I know of to cover it. They have several back door ways of sticking it to us otherwise. MSHA's favorite is prove that it was not cut/broken in operation.

Also read the contract carefully. Most that I have seen in the last several years have verbiage that grants permission to search anything anywhere on the site. Sub's fall under the General on this one in most cases.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-08-2011 17:45
Thanks Wade...  I think your right.

I've seen folks remove tags and try to use bad tools... I just like the security that goes with removing the hand tool from power..

So yes... Tags on everything.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-08-2011 15:57
Robert48,
  I would suggest that you do some FACT finding of your own directly from the source (OSHA). Some of the info in this thread is spot on but there is also an abundance of pure "male bovine excrement" being sloshed around.

1-800-321-OSHA (6742) Toll Free U.S.

jrw159
Parent - By commonarc (**) Date 02-16-2011 12:10
Calling the OSHA 1-800 # is like calling the IRS for tax advise.  Make 10 phone calls and you'll get 10 different answers to a question.

Those saying that OSHA has zero jurisdiction will find out different when someone gets killed, I can assure you.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-16-2011 22:12
Another aspect of this whole discussion would center NOT around rather you fall under OSHA's jurisdiction, but what is the Safety policy of the General Contractor and/or Customer you are working for?

Many times for me, rather welding or inspecting, my job sites have been under much higher safety procedures than even OSHA standards set because of the written safety policy of the General Contractor.  And with some of these guys you don't get many warnings before you are off the job. 

I have OSHA Certs and many other safety classes, but on a first site visit I always spend some time asking the GC's rep about the on site safety procedures I will need to know and follow. 

In AZ our SCF (state accident fund/workers comp) has a program that exceeds OSHA so they have the jurisdiction with very little OSHA activity.  That doesn't mean they aren't around, you just may see someone else who you didn't KNOW was responsible for safety issues.  They do regular safety classes for many different aspects of job safety as well as the OSHA 10 hr over a two day period.  You can also go and take more specialized classes: fall protection, lift equipment, forklifts, etc.

Now, OSHA may be a royal pain and in some cases way out in left field but so much is worth following.  Some parts will slow you down.  But so much of it is common sense.  Other parts just take getting used to instead of fighting with them.  Gaurds on grinders.  Most of the time they are not a problem.  But so many people just throw them away right out of the box.  Rebellious spirit, not teachable, whatever.  I leave them on MOST of the time.  But, there are times they are in the way.  Just one example.  After you work with it a while and stop fighting it, it works fine. 

There will always be items to try to change.  There will always be items some will disagree with while others see the benefit.  But I for one don't like the attitude that looks for ways to just totally disregard and throw away safety regulations.  That doesn't mean I think you need to follow every dictate as though it were absolute law.  If I don't need something and don't fall under the classification that it effects, why do it?  There must be common sense balance to an awful lot of government regulations.  My employees and their safety are as important to me as my own life and safety.  Why would I not do MOST of what is asked of me by these agencies?  I also am not going to go broke trying to go to so many classes that I never have time to work.  The larger the company the more they need FULL TIME Safety Officers/Personnel. 

Oh well.  Just my two tin pennies worth. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By mooseye (**) Date 02-08-2011 16:45
Sounds like the safety guy was using that to get you to do what he wanted you to in the first place. Why argue. You know you can't win with them. At least not often, lol.
Parent - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-09-2011 01:28
Like I said, I had no problem taking it out of service. He wanted me to throw it in the dumpster. I forgot to mention that in the original post. I was still polite and as far as he knows that is where it is at. I don't intend to use any info I gain to argue with anyone. I just like to know my rights in case I need to use them. I get fed up with the stories about OSHA inspectors " cutting every drop cord on the job" and so on. I asked the man who put on our osha training about this very thing and he replied " we are in the buisness of writing citations, not fixing violations". He also added that no OSHA officer has ever done nor ever will do that.
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