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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / E7018 vs. E7018 H4R
- - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-10-2011 01:09
What is the difference?

Could someone explain the H4R designation?
Parent - By ibeweldingsum (***) Date 02-10-2011 01:25
They are the same alloy rod. Lincoln puts H4R on their rods to designate the hydrogen content. Both are rated at 70,000 psi under proper welding procedures. hope that helps and I hope I'm right lol.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 02-10-2011 01:57
http://www.hobartbrothers.com/pdf/datasheets/Hobart718.pdf
- - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-10-2011 01:42
I understand that they are both a SMAW drag rod that can be used in all positions (except vertical down), with a low hydrogen iron powder coating.

Now I see that the H4 designation means the maximum diffusible hydrogen content of 4ml/100g of weld. Any word on the R?

Also while I think about it, I noticed on the Lincoln site, it said "except vertical down"... so how is one supposed to successfully weld a 3g or 6g pipe, which requires vertical down. I have ran some downhill, but the slag is rather annoying and a whole rod cannot be burnt without having to chip the excess slag.
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 02-10-2011 01:57
R = Resistant to moisture pickup.
Parent - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 02-10-2011 03:59
i hope you understand you fill and cap 7018 uphill. 3g and 6g are positions, not a wps spec.
- - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-10-2011 02:13
Thank you for the link and replies.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-10-2011 02:47
As far as I know, the only downhill lo-hi is 7048, and it sux. Classic example of a clever solution to a non existant problem. Gotta run the 7048 HOT and still takes some artistic rod angles/manipulation to stay ahead of the slag.
The 1986? AWS D1.1 used to allow 3/32" lo-hi downhill for undercut fill, but can't say as it is still in the code.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-10-2011 16:10
Actually Superflux Lincoln has a rod out specifically for lo-hi downhill, LH-D80, LH-D90, LH-D100. I have not used it as of yet but was interested in giving it a try until I checked the cost of it, then figured if I was going to use it I would have to have new wps and testing($$$$) to effectively use a more expensive product, or stick with 6010's. Link to Lincolns page with the three listed above,

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/consumables/stick-electrodes/Pages/stick-electrodes.aspx

As I said, have not used it and wanted to try it but have not run across any in my price range....free, hehehe, until I talked to my guy at the LWS and he said, "let me email the lincoln rep and see if he can send a sample". Been a few days so hope to hear from him about that in awhile, interested in giving them a run.

Shawn
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-11-2011 02:53
Shawn,
I just looked at those on the Lincoln site. They are a 5 instead of 8 for flux chemistry. Haven't dealt with any 5's other than Stainless XXX15 years ago. Forget the particulars of the composition other than the XXX-15 don't have iron powder in the flux and therefore are a thinner coating than XX48. I can't wait to hear of anyone saying they think these are in any way superior in their operator appeal to 5P (up or down) or EXX18 run uphill. I know back in 2008 when I had the E7048 downhill procedure and welder testing, everyone griped from test booth to end of project. Me included, mostly due to the paperwork of 20 some odd failed weld tests from highly skilled Union Tankies (Boilermakers) and only 3 passed. I ran some samples and was not a fan of this rod. In fact, they were so crappy to run, I let a Boilermaker throw MY Hood.
Say, if you buy a can of those LH-D80's, send me a handful so I can give you my opinion of them. Don't fret over the cost, it's all Tax deductible!!!! LOL... I'll even give you a receipt for my professional services to hand over to the accountant next year.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-11-2011 04:02
I have to run by the LWS tomorrow before running further north to look at some other stuff, I'll stop in and see what he found out from the lincoln rep. Maybe he'll have some news or maybe he'll have some on hand. If I can get ahold of some I'll send you some to try. I've only run downhill on light stuff 7018, but really had to book it. Don't know how well it penetrates though. Maybe I'll chunk up a piece of pipe this weekend and give it a whirl while I try some uphill open roots.
Parent - - By JHarlos (**) Date 02-12-2011 12:03
I have ran the lh-d rods.  That's one of lincolns worst mistakes.  Have to run very hot and takes some time to figure out rod angel so not to bug hole. They are a beast
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-12-2011 16:21
That's good information, thanks J!

Shawn
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 02-10-2011 16:34
Then maybe they should change the 7018 desination . i've always been led to believe that the 1
in 7018 meant that it could be welded in ANY POSITION. Took a plate test once for chicago bridge and iron
for a tank repair project 1/2" plate open root downhill 7018.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-10-2011 17:05
Joe if you can do it then you are the man.  I always believed the same, tried it on fillets and 3g a time or two and it suuuuuuccccccckkkkeeed!  I could not keep the flux from overrunning the puddle.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 02-10-2011 18:14
When i was setting m y heat on a practice plate i was running 3/32 vertical
when the company inspector came to check on me i proudly showed him my
root pass he gave me a disgusted look  so i asked him what the problem was
and he informed me i had to weld it downhill . I told  him i had never welded downhill
with lohi except for undercut repair. He told me to give it a try i gave up after about 10 min
tried hot/cold/tight root opening to a 1/8 opening couldn't get it  worst test io've ever failed  lol
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-10-2011 19:22
Several years ago the Welding Journal had an article about a cross country pipeline in Australia that was installed by Bechtel using E7018 with downhill progression.

I can’t say that I have ever tried it, but I have heard it can be done.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Robert48 (**) Date 02-11-2011 00:36
No offense, but toilets also flush backasswards there too.
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-11-2011 02:36
LOL..!!!    ( toilets also flush backasswards there too. )    You can't put it any clearer than that..!!! 

You can survive jumping off a 5 story building too but why try it.. I'm not good enough to run 7018 down hill or let me rephrase that I have never tried to be good enough to run it down hill... LOL

  When it runs so pretty and clean up hill why fight it down hill..??

  I can run 5P or 6011 up hill, down hill, beside the hill, or over the hill but 7018...   Not so much..!!!!

  RC
Parent - By Pickupman (***) Date 02-11-2011 04:17
Well when you think about it,when you're running 7018 downhill in Australia, you're actually going uphill so ya you could do it.:-)
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-11-2011 15:57
Two things I would like to add here:

First, I too have taken and passed 7018 downhand (for CBI, CSS-out of business, and others).  It is not easy but once you get used to setting your amps to the high end, pointing your rod down for a slight push instead of pulling the puddle and running stringers with little weave it isn't bad.  We had to run many root passes and cover passes with downward progression. 

Second, on the 7018-H4R electrodes,  I haven't seen anyone mention what to me is a key part of the designator.  While it is actually relaying information on the hydrogen content and the 'R' tells you it has been TESTED to resist moisture pickup for extended periods of time,  THE IMPORTANT PART OF THAT TRANSLATES TO 9 HOURS OF ATMOSPHERIC EXPOSURE INSTEAD OF 4 PER D1.1 Table 5.1. 

I recommend it for all applications in place of standard 7018.  I also buy all of mine in 10 lb tins but because of the volume I get the same price per pound as getting it in 50's.  Once I pop the top on a tin I can use out of it for 9  hrs on the job site without having an oven on site.  I prefer to use my oven and only carry a couple pounds at a time.  Usually people take enough drink, bathroom, smoke breaks to refill the rod container from the oven without having to make a special trip just for rod. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 02-11-2011 16:30
Thanks for the info on the H-4R  designation. This forum is a great place to learn
and sometimes be entertained. Now would this rod also have a different holding temperature,
rebake temperature etc. you got me curious now  Joe
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-11-2011 19:51
As far as the holding temps it doesn't make any difference.  D1.1 calls all holding temps at 250*F for low hydrogen electrodes. 

Now, as for rebaking, if it is an electrode that falls into an AWS Specification of A5.1 then it falls under D1.1, Clause 5.3.2.4 (1) which states at least two hrs between 5-800*F. If it is an A5.5 then it falls under Clause 5.3.2.4 (2) which states at least one hr between 7-800*F.  As I don't know if any of the 7018 electrodes with an 'R' fall under A5.5 I'm not sure if they are all the same for re-bake.  I know the ones I use are A5.1.

I believe I got that all straight.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By Rig Hand (***) Date 02-11-2011 16:16
We ran 7018 down hill a lot in boilers, of course we also tigged downhill too :) but you didn't hear that from me. We would run the 7018 to "pad weld" thin tubes. If you ran up hill you would blow threw pretty quick. Now these weren't the most critical welds, but they all pased a dye pen. test. Its not hard ounce you learn how to let the slag run on by and fall out of the way, you can't carry very much metal.
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-11-2011 16:25
What did that look like... I cant imagine it being very pretty..!!

  RC
Parent - By Rig Hand (***) Date 02-12-2011 00:07
It looks like a sheet of glass with tiny little ripples :)  It really does lay down smooth, well after about the 3rd day it does. It just takes some practice.

I will say that I wouldn't want to make x-ray welds with it all day long. But for beefing up thin tubes it works pretty good.
- By commonarc (**) Date 02-13-2011 14:25 Edited 02-13-2011 14:33
Boilermaker Tankies run E7018 downhill all the time. They'd run you off the job site if you ran it uphill.

You are correct about welding on boilertubes with E7018 downhill as I've done it dozens of times.  Boiler tube membrane is also welded downhill.  Low penetration is desired when pad welding thin tubes or connecting membrane to boiler tubes.  There are written welding procedures on this subject as I've seen them in the past.  I even took a weld test downhill with E7018.  The slag likes to run in front of you and sometimes you have to flick it away with the rod while welding. Rod angle is critical.  Not an easy way to weld E7018.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / E7018 vs. E7018 H4R

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