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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Ferrite % Accuracy: Number of Fields vs. Points
- - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-23-2011 13:57
We have a supplier who keeps violating our test spec for the ASTM E562 image analysis for Ferrite %.

Our spec calls for a minimum of 15 fields with 36 points per field at 500X.  They keep testing at 400X with 30 fields and only 16 points per field.

They are going to try to make the argument that more fields is better.  But it is not an apples to apples comparison.  There is no easy way to compare the two.

If I take a total point count, it is 540 our way vs. 480 their way.  I don't see how they can say they have the same relative accuracy or confidence interval.

We are talking about Duplex SS castings BTW.  So far I have learned that there are advantages and disadvantages to both more and less mag and more and less fields.

This is also posted in Metallurgy but people don't read those posts as often as in technical.
Parent - By MMyers (**) Date 02-23-2011 14:16 Edited 02-23-2011 14:23
Since they're not apples to apples, you would need to take several samples and measure all of them using each method and compare.  If you did a statistical analysis on the results, I bet they'd both be with the error band.  They may be violating the spec, but I doubt the difference in technique really makes any significant difference.  They only have a little more than 10% fewer points but 100% more fields.  Now if this were 100x and 50 points or something drastically different, I'd be more inclined to say it'd make a significant difference. 

As for accuracy or confidence interval, consider the Fahrenheit and Celsius temperature scales.  Fahrenheit has more graduations of temperature, thus must be more accurate, but the standard in everything medical (and actually almost everywhere in the world except the U.S.), a generally agreed critical field, is Celsius.  Cue the "law of diminishing returns" and the phrase "sometimes enough is all you need". 

All that said, I'd either force them to spec or run this one up the flag pole and do comparative tests of the two techniques.  There is no way I'd make this call on the fly.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 02-23-2011 16:44 Edited 02-23-2011 16:47
They are demonstrably out of compliance with your specification.  If I was in charge, I would reject it.  If I were bound to apply some sort of "value engineering judgment", perhaps it could be found acceptable, after comprehensive metallurgical, mechanical engineering, corrosion engineering, and fitness for purpose analysis.  Even then, what is the cost, and who pays?

If it is in a Nuke, what are the legal / NRC ramifications?
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-23-2011 16:57
It is in offshore oil.  And I have to enforce my customer's desires per their spec I guess.  I passed it up the line as a review comment and will not spend any more time on this.  It was mainly an question for me to learn from.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Ferrite % Accuracy: Number of Fields vs. Points

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