minimum OD qualified

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-25-2011 21:56

What code?

By Joey

Date 02-26-2011 17:04

Curtis Stewart

Surely, it is appropriate to ask for the Code reference before you as a Consultant can provide an accurate answer…no argument Sir.
But being a Consultant, do you think azphilks question can be applicable to AWS codes?

By the way, my understanding of Socket weld is… it’s a type of connector..meaning the pipe or tube pipe inserted into the socket weld fittings.
The word "socket weld" can be found in ASME / API codes.

I’m not sure whether you are ready to get your advice from BSEN std when you asked for the code. What other codes do you think will give a “NO” answer to azphilks question?

I’m just curious to know.

Thanks

~Joey~
Smokey Mountain

By RANDER

Date 02-26-2011 21:16 Edited 02-26-2011 23:28

Qualification tests performed to API 1104 do have restrictions based on the qualification test performed. Since DbigK seems to be very familiar with 1104 and I am less so I will leave a full detailed response to him however I believe that his question of Code/Standard is relevant and necessary for a proper response to the poster.

This is my understanding looking at API 1104 - 20th Edition -2005

If he performed a single qualification test in accordance with section 6.2 then more information is needed Ie., position, size, wall thickness as fillet welds are not automatically qualified by all single qual. butt weld tests. [removed to avoid unnecessary confusion]

If he performed a Multiple qualification test as described in section 6.3.1 and it is was a 12.X12 Butt on Branch, he would be qualified in all positions, wall thk., joint designs, fittings and pipe diameters. The same test as described but performed on smaller diameter piping would limit the Pipe diameter qualified to less than or equal to the diameter used on the test.

Whether it is AWS,API, etc....More information is always good in a question posed to people unfamiliar with your situation

By Joey

Date 02-26-2011 23:48

So you're saying "NO" meaning the welders are not allowed to weld 1/2" socket weld- based on API 1104?

By RANDER

Date 02-27-2011 01:16

Not at all. The point is that more information is required to answer that question. We can assume many things that would lead me to answer your statement in the affirmative however they would be just that, assumptions. If we took the basic assumption that he qualified on a 12x12 branch,butt test in cs using SMAW process he would be qualified as I stated above.....change the process to GTAW on his production weld and he will have to requalify per section 6 of API 1104.. It gets worse if we assume a single qualification. Hence more information is required from the original poster in my opinion, the first of which is what code?....I dont know, I could be way off the mark however if you could direct me to a code reference affirming your assumption, I would be happy to accept it. Regardless of allllll that, we still dont know what code or the type of work the op is looking at.

By Joey

Date 02-27-2011 14:42

All of us agreed that the Code must be known first for us to provide an accurate answer. I have mentioned that earlier.

Okay let say the actual code is API 1104 ; azphiks’ welders were qualified in 1”dia OD butt weld (6G), he wants your advise if these welders are qualified to weld 1/2" dia socket weld.

Do you agree with Mr Curtis Stewart, that the welders must go for multi qualification and not a single qualification? You don’t mind to elaborate on why you said “it gets worse if we assume a single qualification”

I don’t have my API 1104 with me ……but I still do remember in my past project when we want to weld some drain pipes (3/4” dia socket welds)…we only qualified our welders in single qualification (using 60mm OD pipe ; GTAW process). Have you heard outside diameter grouping in API 1104?

Thanks in advance Bro.
~Joey~ :)

By RANDER

Date 02-27-2011 21:25

All of us agreed that the Code must be known first for us to provide an accurate answer. I have mentioned that earlier.
I do not dispute this statement

Okay let say the actual code is API 1104 ; azphiks’ welders were qualified in 1”dia OD butt weld (6G), he wants your advise if these welders are qualified to weld 1/2" dia socket weld. --- Yes as long as no essential variables are changed.

6.2.2 Scope
A welder who has successfully completed the qualification
test described in 6.2.1 shall be qualified within the limits of the essential variables described below. If any of the following
essential variables are changed, the welder using the new
procedure shall be requalified:

6.2.2.f. A change in position from that for which the welder has
already qualified (for example, a change from rolled to fixed
or a change from vertical to horizontal or vice versa). A
welder who successfully passes a butt-weld qualification test
in the fixed position with the axis inclined 45° from the horizontal
plane shall be qualified to do butt welds and lap fillet
welds in all positions.

This paragraph seems to say that a welder is qualified for fillets if he successfully passes a 6G butt-weld qual. (single), However it will still be held to the other essential variables found in 6.2.2 such as Joint design, welding process, direction of travel, OD groups, Wall thickness groups, filler metal groups. Test Coupon = 1" dia. xxs (0.358") will not qualify a 1/2" dia. Std. wall (.109") due to change in wall thickness groups (essential variable)

Do you agree with Mr Curtis Stewart, that the welders must go for multi qualification and not a single qualification? You don’t mind to elaborate on why you said “it gets worse if we assume a single qualification”

6.2.2.f - Allows for fillets qualified by butt-weld test if welded in the 6G position as I read it
Elaborate - I mean to say that the multiple qual. test is a broader qualification and therefore if we were to assume what test the OP used, that would be the best scenario to use as his welders would be qual'd for the 1/2" socket welds (within limits), VS a single qual. that has a narrower range of qualified positions, sizes, etc...

I don’t have my API 1104 with me ……but I still do remember in my past project when we want to weld some drain pipes (3/4” dia socket welds)…we only qualified our welders in single qualification (using 60mm OD pipe ; GTAW process). Have you heard outside diameter grouping in API 1104?

I agree that this can be done. Do you remember if the coupons were welded in 6G position?
Yes I have heard of OD grouping in API 1104 but that is not the only essential variable and piping may fall into the same OD group but not the same Wall Thk. group

As I said before this is my understanding of the Welder qualifications per API 1104. I am open to correction if I am misinterpreting something. My intent is not to prove/disprove or argue anything other than the OP must provide additional information as the test variables will affect the qualification

By Joey

Date 02-28-2011 02:27 Edited 02-28-2011 02:30

I know that the OP has a very limited information, however, the main issue is OD and socket weld (fillet weld).

I'm satisfied with 6.2.2.f plus the OD grouping.

Very well explained. Thanks and have a nice day.

Joey

By Joey

Date 02-26-2011 16:53

azphiks

ASME IX (FILLET QUALIFICATION BY GROOVE-WELD TESTS)

Yes - Fillet welds are qualified when a welder/welding operator qualifies on a groove weld (butt) test. All base material thicknesses, fillet sizes, and diameters.

(fillet weld: a weld of approximately triangular cross section joining two surfaces approximately at right angles to each other in a lap joint, tee joint, corner joint, or socket weld)

I don’t have with me the API 1104, but I believe your welders are also qualified to socket welding based on this code.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-27-2011 05:40 Edited 02-28-2011 04:41

A welder single qualified 6G 1104 6.2.2 ...within the limits of the essential variables listed below. 6.2.2. a-f
A welder multiple qualified 6.3.2...shall be qualified to weld in all positions on all wall thickness, joint design and fittings, and on all pipe diameters.
And a welder qualified by ASME Section IX would not be qualified to weld 1104 and visa versa.
DOT 192 and 195 along with B31.4and B31.8 allows the use of either API 1104 OR ASME Section IX for qualification of welders, but I have never seen a pipeline contractor use ASME section IX for welder qualification.
Not that some may have, it is just not industry practice.