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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Filler metal certs ?
- - By flamin (**) Date 03-23-2011 15:53
Hey guys-

We have customers that require we submit CMTR's for materials used during manufacturig. It seems I am having a harder time finding filler metal CMTR's that are actually traceable to the filler metal being used. Whenever we ask our supplier to provide a CMTR for the filler metals we purchase, we get this generic piece of paper (C of C) that says nothing other than the type of filler it is. Often times the C of C is dated several years before the manufacture of the filler metal. Anyone could stick this on a box of filler and call it "good". There are no heat/lot numbers even listed on the C of C. Many times if there is a heat/lot number, it still doesn't tie in to the label on the filler metal. Our supplier says if we want CMTR's, we need to purchase this astronomical amount of filler from the manufacturer, otherwise, we're stuck with these generic certs. We've heard this from more than one supplier. Has anyone else encountered this issue? Are there other ways to associate a cert. to a filler metal other than heat or lot numbers?

Thanks
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-23-2011 16:54
Maybe I don't understand exactly what your requirements are but...  Maybe it's time to start shopping filler metal suppliers.

http://www.hobartbrothers.com/pdf/certs/QCL-6TypCert.pdf
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 03-23-2011 16:56
We do this in the aerospace industry, but we don't have to buy tons of the stuff.  However we do end up paying much more for traceable filler.  I recommend trying several distributors, if your normal supply chain can't meet your requirements.  If you're near major aerospace or power plant industry, chances are you'll have a distributor rep nearby who knows the ropes with mill certs.  Good luck; it took us several years to get a chain established here.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-23-2011 18:12
In addition to what the others posted....
For Lincoln electrodes you can go Here for CoC's on their products. Type in the batch/lot number right off the can/spool and then print a pdf of your CoC right from there.
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 03-23-2011 19:26
Thanks for the replies,
Lawrence,
I might have to find a different supplier. There aren't many suppliers in our city, and the suppliers we do have, always seem to be limited on basic supplies. I may have to consider buying from out of state.

Boz,
We're also a AS9100 shop, so we are constantly dealing with this sort of thing. For the past three years that I've been dealing with this, it seems to be never ending.

John,
Thanks for the link, I was looking at that site yesterday, and this morning looking for a C of C for my SuperGlaze 4043 tig rod. I typed in the Q1 lot numbers that are listed on the boxes of filler I have, and I keep getting an error.

Jason
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-23-2011 20:16
We use Lincoln and its easy to get C of C's.  We also use ESAB, and I have to get them from my salesman, but again we buy so much I have it within 2 hrs.
Before you buy the electrode, make sure that you can get one or don't buy that product, pick another manufacturer.  Especially don't go to Harbor Freight and expect them to give you any type of paperwork on their electrodes.:lol:
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 03-24-2011 00:35
Morninng all,
Most clients I work for on oil and gas projects in the Southern Hemisphere refuse to accept C of C's for any material, filler metal included.
Quite easy to obtain CMTRs, just list it on the Purchase Order.
If material arrives without certs or is supplied with C of C's I just tell the truck to turn around and send it back, the supplied material does not cmply with the P/O.
Doesn't take the supplier long to start locating the certs that "supposedly" could not be supplied by the manufacturer.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 03-24-2011 17:19
When dealing with traceability issues, a good auditor will not accept anything less than a melt certificate from the manufacturer, traceable to the purchasing document and to the shop order where the work was performed, showing that heat number (aka melt no., lot no., etc) on each document in turn. If one of your welds fails and you cannot show this traceability, you are very likely going to be liable for the consequences of that failure, especially in aerospace.  I can only guess at some of the difficulties you have been experiencing; flag-tagging, traceability, availability of smaller quantities, proper unit packaging and identification to name a few.  You will find, as did I, that you have to reach out for suppliers.  Every order I make is out of state.  I can PM you with more info, if you want it.
Parent - By flamin (**) Date 03-25-2011 17:30
Thanks, I would appreciate that.
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 03-25-2011 16:00
Are you looking for Actual certs or typical certs.
I get my typ certs on line from supplier....the actual certs are required in the purchase order and costs more.
MIKE
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 03-25-2011 18:04
Our customers typically require we submit actual certs, Certified Material Test Reports, or something that is traceable.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 03-25-2011 19:55
I have never understood the requirement for a Certificate of Conformance...

When Lincoln or whoever builds a batch of elecrode, puts a label on it that states it is E71T-1M, and puts it on the market as a E71T-1M, why would there be a question of whether it in fact meets the requirements of E71T-1M?

I mean if it is thought that the manufacturer may falsely claim the product is E71T-1M, why would we then believe their C of Cs are somehow going to be legitimate?
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-25-2011 20:09
Blaster

I agree, except that there is so much phony paper out there, and so much foreign filler material out there that just doesn't seem to be the same as the US made products,that I don't see how the industry can do without it.

If true filler material certs are needed, then the individual batch cert is the only thing that will do.  The C of C is just a paperwork chase.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-25-2011 20:04
Flamin

I believe that the C of C has to be done each year.  So, to me, a C of C produced years before the manufacture date would be toilet paper.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 03-26-2011 13:32
Thanks everyone,

From here on out, I'll make it a point to make sure CMTR's are requested on any purchase orders. In the meantime, I'll be in pursuit of more suppliers.

Jason
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-26-2011 17:02
If traceability is a job requirement, you need to request the material test report when you order the filler metal, not after delivery.

You can get whatever is needed if you know how to specify the material properly. AWS A5.01 (ASME SFA5.10) is a procurement guide that tells the purchaser how to properly specify the filler metal and what documentation is "deliverable."

There are several "schedules" defined by AWS A5.01 and used by the purchaser when issuing the purchase order. In cases where it is necessary to have a material test report for each "heat", "lot", or "batch", the purchaser will find it best to speak directly to the manufacturer. You can get material test reports that are traceable to each container of filler metal if you specify the proper “schedule” in your purchase order.

Filler metals that are required to have traceability are usually available directly from the manufacturer. The manufacturer typically "qualifies" the filler metal once a year. The heat and/or lot tested serves as evidence the quality control system in place is functioning properly. The heat or lot that is tested is often placed in the "bonded warehouse" for those customers that require full traceabiliity. The standard "off the shelf" filler metal is produced following the manufacturer's standard quality control system and the label slapped on the container and shipped to their distributers.

Under both the AWS and ASME filler metal specifications, the label affixed to the container of filler metal is the "certification" it meets the requirements of the applicable filler metal specification. Anything beyond that label must be specified at the time the filler metal is ordered. Having all the requirements properly spelled out in the purchase order is the secret. Use AWS A5.01 as your bible and you will get what you are looking for.

One last thing I like to include in purchase orders for filler metals purchased from local suppliers, "no repackaging" by the vendor is permitted. All filler metals must be delivered in the original unopened manufacturer's packaging. 

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Filler metal certs ?

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