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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / What is the differece between tube and pipe?
- - By Barbaros (*) Date 04-06-2011 13:34
Folks, can somebody explane me the differences between this definitions of tube and pipe according to asme codes?

For example; i have both SA 213 TP 321 and SA 312 TP 321 materials and i see no difference between them :smile:

Thanks for your helps.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-06-2011 14:39
Barbaros,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

Check this link.  We recently had a discussion that included this very subject.  Tube & Pipe distinguishing factors.  Should answer your question:

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=27127

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 04-06-2011 22:26
Barbaros

Tube and pipe both can be used for conveying liquid and/or gases even under pressure.
Tube and pipe both can be used for structural fabrication, framing,...
One difference is that pipe is rigid while tubing may be either rigid or flexible
But the main difference between the two is how they are sized.
Pipe is sized according to an ID(inside diameter) and schedule and Tube is sized according to its OD ( outside diameter) and wall thickness
Hope this helps more than it hurts
and Welcome to the American Welding Society Online Forum
Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-06-2011 22:54
Don't forget now Marshall,

Tubing can be square, rectangular, or round.  Pipe is just round.

Per manufacturer's data sheets and AISC Construction Manual.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 04-07-2011 08:36
welderbrent

You are absolutely right, Thank You.

I was just too quick on the post :wink:

Marshall
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 04-07-2011 02:28
Tube is tubular and pipe has got to be pipular.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-08-2011 15:32
I think it has been said in previous threads of this question, but it will probably bear repeating:

The biggest determination of rather you have pipe or tube is the ASTM Standard to which it was manufactured.  If ASTM A-53 was used then you have pipe manufactured to certain and very specific tolerances, quality standards, production procedures, etc.  If ASTM A-500 was used then you have tubing manufactured to specific standards.

Some may come very close to overlapping.  But, pipe is pipe and tube is tube.  Now, All are HSS according to AISC.  And there may be places were substitution would be acceptable by the EOR.  But, they are still manufactured to separate standards and that is why we are to request MTR's and document what our material is in use on the job. 

While measuring by the ID is a good start for pipe, and OD measurements with wall thickness for tubes, there is only one way to state beyond a shadow of a doubt what your material is.  That is to know it's ASTM number and have an MTR on it's production and testing.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-14-2011 20:25
One is a round piece of steel with a hole in the middle of it, the other is a hole with piece of round steel around it.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-14-2011 20:26
:cool:been sitting here waiting for someone to say that
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 04-15-2011 00:44
Made my day.
   M.G.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-15-2011 01:05
But which one is pipular?
- - By junkiron (**) Date 04-06-2011 22:01
tubes are in boilers, everything else a pipe according boilermakers union
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-07-2011 10:52
I've heard that boilermakers call anything under 6 inches tube regardless where pipe guys would call it pipe. Don't know if that is true or not and not sure if it is actually "tube" according to the what has been stated above, "measured od and wall thickness".
Parent - - By TozziWelding (**) Date 04-07-2011 11:48
This is an ask 100 people get 100 answers question.  I was taught pipe is ID tube is OD but that only works on paper. Or tubing is square and pipe is round, or tubing is flexible and pipe is ridged, but what about mechanical tubing with a 3" wall thickness? Just scratch your head and go along with the people that are paying you.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-07-2011 13:01
Ain't that the truth! I go by what my steel guy has, tube OD, pipe ID.
Parent - By TozziWelding (**) Date 04-07-2011 13:04
I was doing a job, all 10" pipe. I swear every stick on the lift was a different size, the only thing that was the same was the green weldbend fittings. The HI LO on that job sucked, crank it up and burn it in.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-08-2011 16:59
Is that so? No!
Pipes of 14 inches diameter and over are measured by the outside diameter.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-08-2011 21:48
Very true Professor.

Pipe is by the ID up to and including 12".  14" and above goes by the OD.

Pipe is made in 1/2" steps from 1 1/2" - 5".  1" steps from 5"-12".  2" steps from 12"-20".  These are for standard runs.  I know you can get other sizes especially if you want to pay for a custom run.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 04-09-2011 13:53 Edited 04-09-2011 17:07
Pipe is "measured by the ID"???.
I thought piping systems were designed by the ID for a specific flow and for MAOP by their schedule (wall thickness). All pipe of a specified NPS, ie. Nominal Pipe Size is of the same OD. All 4" NPS is going to be 4.5" OD.
This practice makes tap and die manufacturers to only have to have thread sizes for a few basic OUTSIDE diameters.
Here's a what if...
1/2" sch. 10s is   0.840 OD with a 0.083 wall thickness. Which gives a 0.757 ID.
3/4" sch. xxs has 1.050 OD with a 0.308 wall thickness. Which gives a 0.742 ID.
So if pipe is measured from the, ID then 3/4" pipe is smaller than 1/2"????

Also another glitch is that schedule 40 and "standard wall" pipe are not always the same wall thickness.
Parent - - By strother (***) Date 04-09-2011 22:26
I am working on a project now that brings into question standard wall and sch 40 . The drawings called  for 3" std. wall pipe and 4" X strong pipe. Do I assume that I know what they want or do I spend 3 or 4 hrs. trying to get some one to tell me what I need to know. I think "pipe"is out dated .
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-10-2011 00:28 Edited 04-10-2011 00:31
I would want to know what they mean before quoting or building anything. I don't think the term "pipe" is outdated, but it only tells 1/2 the story.
If they said 3" sch. 40 and 4" sch. 80 You would know what they wanted.
Parent - - By strother (***) Date 04-10-2011 01:32
Turned out 3" sch 40 and 4" sch 80 is what they wanted. It took several phone calls to find out for sure and held me up a day on ordering materials for a job I should have already been working on. I was 99% sure that i knew what they wanted but this is the first job I've done for this company and that other 1% could have come back to bite me.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-11-2011 15:14 Edited 04-11-2011 15:16
Strother,

This is not AGAINST you personally nor meant to be critical of your decision to get clarification because I believe in: When in doubt, check it out.

But, I would have already ordered the material based upon the information available.  I check engineers/drawing material information against the AISC Construction Manual and my suppliers book of available materials.  Both show The different classes/schedules of pipe available and give you all the dimensioning required to make sure of your purchase. 

4" Std is 4" sch 40 pipe with OD of 4.500 and a wall thickness of .237 and can also be called out as a 4.500X.237.  It can also be called out as a Pipe 4 Std.  That is how AISC designates the materials to be called out.

Then, they have pipe shown with Sch 10, 40 (STD), 80 (X Strong/Heavy), or XX Strong/Heavy.

If they ask for 5.563X.258 it is easy to know what they want.  Just as if they call out a 5"Pipe NPS.  If you look at 'Pipe Size' and find 5" then it will be 5" Nominal Pipe Size which is 5.563X.258 Pipe.  With an ID of just slightly larger than 5" and a wall thickness of .258 and an OD of 5.563. 

Your 4" single 'X' Heavy or Strong (depending on the manufacturer)  is a schedule 80 4" Pipe.

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By strother (***) Date 04-11-2011 23:54
Brent,
     Your input or advice is welcome any time! I've heard sch 80 called extra heavy but X strong threw me off. Since this is the first job I've done for this company and I'm actually a sub contractor for the company that won the bid I opted for clarification.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-09-2011 23:38
I think I've heard that somewhere before Giovanni, not sure where but sounds familiar.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-11-2011 11:29
Shawn, take quick look at any steel shape chart to see what Giovanni is saying....been that way for a long time. The break is @ 14" on any of ANSI Pipe Schedule Charts that I have in the office.
Parent - By Pickupman (***) Date 04-11-2011 22:55
Seems like it says that in the blue book also, but I don't have one handy right now to verify with.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 04-08-2011 05:08
Only problem is that 98 of those you ask don't know the right answer.
Here's another way to look at it;   All pipe is a tube, but not all tube is pipe.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-08-2011 16:55
Gentlemen,
Copied verbatim from the Glossary of Tubing Terms:

Pipe: a tubular product made to dimensions specified by ANSI Standard B31.1.

From this clear definition we can deduct that tubular products not made to dimensions specified by ANSI B31.1 are tubes.

Here in Brazil we don't make any difference between pipe and tube. Every tubular product, whether made or not to any standard, whether round or square, whether used in boilers, heat exchangers or steam pipings, is "tube".
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By JCP (*) Date 04-08-2011 18:13
without documentation you might think a stick of pipe is made of carbon it all looks the same in a pile
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-14-2011 02:24
Guys,
ID is never used for sizing pipe.
As noted above ID is simply a by product of subtracting 2 x nominated wall thickness from the OD. (Wall thickness / Schedule will be determind by the design engineer)
It is clearly explained in an ANSI B36.10 Welded and Seamless Wrought Steel Pipe Clauses 1 & 2. (which for some reason I cannot copy & paste)
Up to 12" the OD is significantly bigger than the nominal size.
14" and up have the OD and nominal size as almost the same measurement.
As also noted in B36.10 the difference between Pipe & Tube is that Tube has all the ODs and Nominal sizes similar to each other, not 14" OD and up as pipe has.
Hope that clarifies,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-14-2011 03:35
"Up to 12" the OD is significantly bigger than the nominal size."

Shane, when You buy pipe under 12" at a plumbing supply in the US, You specify the nominal  size and schedule, the nominal size being the APROXAMATE inside diameter.

Yes, I know that particularly in the smaller sizes the ID and nominal size are pretty much different, as a percentage of the diameter.

If You asked for the pipe by the OD and wall thickness, You would get a blank stare from the guy.

As someone mentioned, on 12" and under the OD is kept the same so that all schedules of the same nominal size can be threaded with the same taps & dies.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-14-2011 04:08
Dave,
If I want 2" (nominal pipe size) Sch 40 pipe in New Zealand or Australia I ask for it that way exactly the same as you in the US.
The discussion was how do you size pipe ?
It cannot be sized on the ID because a 2" pipe may be Sch 40, Sch 80, Sch 120 or Sch 160 therefore based on different wall thicknesses the ID will vary.
If I ask for 2" pipe I will always get pipe 2.375" OD - irrespective of ID or wall thickness.
My correct response should have been pipe is always sized according to nominal pipe size.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-14-2011 04:57
I didn't know that You used the same system there.

On American engines We often used 1/8-27 NTP for oil pressure sensors.
Forign [Honda & Peugeot] engines I have owned use something similar but different, presumably metric that is about 26 threads per inch,
and I think tapered as there is no gasket.
Any idea what that thread or system is?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-14-2011 16:04
Actually, the Original Poster's Original Question was how to distinguish between Pipe and Tube.

And this ALWAYS becomes the contention point for all parties who participate in an answer: Do you measure pipe by the ID and tube by the OD?? 

Yes, AND  No.  As a large percentage of pipe is sch 40 and smaller than 12" (I didn't say all or most just a large percentage) the fastest way for most people to check the size is to measure the ID as they ORDERED 4" pipe and that has an ID that is VERY CLOSE to 4".  At the least it is easy to tell it from 3 1/2". 

There are so many different codes being worked to and so many different ways to call out the product that to get into a major disagreement about rather pipe is measured by the ID or not is not really the issue.  And even AISC sets up a practice for measuring by the OD X wall thickness with measurements to three decimal places.  This can apply to both pipe and tube. 

And if I am not mistaken, because of the vast differences in schedules and usage there are more and more industries calling out pipe by the OD and wall thickness instead of using the previously accepted practice of say, 5" sch 40 pipe.  More are calling it by 5.563X.258 pipe.  But not all.  So it becomes more of an issue when we see it on in a set of prints to ask for an RFI even if we think we understand what they want.  At least when talking structural application.  I can't tell you how many times I just happen to mention the size of a requested pipe only to find the engineer looking at me like a calf at a new gate.  I have to back up and make sure that the column he requested in 4" pipe was indeed 4" ID and 4.500 on the OD.  No wonder it wouldn't fit where he wanted it.  He wanted 4" OD!!  OR 3 1/2" pipe according to the manufacturers. 

If you want to know the difference you need to know the specs your material was manufactured to by requesting and comparing your product to the MTR for it's lot/heat number.  The particular ASTM number it is manufactured to will tell you rather it is tube or pipe. 

They really need to standardize the measuring practice so there is no room for confusion no matter what trade, industry, manufacturer, or Code you are working to.

One thing we can say for certain: Tubing Is Always Measured by the OD with the Wall Thickness.

A discussion on the difference between Pipe and Tube needs to get away from how PIPE is measured.  That is not the issue. 

And thank you for the ANSI number.  I had been trying to remember where I had seen a Standard that gave that information. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-15-2011 01:22
Brent,
To get back to the original question, not sure if this helps.
Again from B36.10 Scope
" The word PIPE is used to distinguish from TUBE to apply to tubular products of dimensions commonly used for pipeline and piping systems.
Pipe dimensions of sizes 12" and under have outside diameters numerically larger than corresponding sizes.
In contrast, the outside diameter of tubes are numerically identical to the size number for all sizes."
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-14-2011 20:31
Shane,
a pipe that carries a fluid, either liquid and gaseous, is usually sized by the velocity of the fluid within it. Once you've stated the velocity, and knowing the flow rate, you calculate the cross sectional area, and then the diameter. This diameter is always the inside diameter, not the outside one.
So, if not always, almost always a pipe that carries a fluid is sized by the inside diameter.
Of course, this isn't so for structural pipe.
Cordialloy
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-15-2011 01:12
Hello Giovanni,
I understand what you are saying but with all due respect have to disagree.
Wall thickness (to withstand internal pressure) and diameter (to allow sufficient flow/velocity) are design considerations - the discussion we are having is regarding sizing of pipe.
ANSI B36.10 Table 2 Dimensions and Weights of Welded and Seamless Wrought Steel Pipe lists Nominal Pipe Size, Outside Diameter and Wall Thickness - no mention of Internal Diameter.
ANSI B36.10 Clause 2 Size " The size of all pipe is identified by the nominal pipe size."
Nominal Pipe Size for 12" and under is based on the ID - Nominal Pipe Size for 14" and over is based on the OD.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-19-2011 22:36
I'll give an example to explain better what I'm trying to say. In Australia you've long abandoned the British measures, so I'll use metric units.  

Let's suppose I've got to size a piping carrying 100 cubic meters an hour of water at ambient temperature. I'll adopt a velocity of 1,8 meters per second of water within the pipe.
100 cubic meters per hour is equal to 0,0278 cubic meters per second. 0,0278 cubic meters per second divided by 1,8 meters per second gives a cross sectional area of 0,0154 square meters. 0,0154 square meters corresponds to a diameter of 0,140 meters or 140 millimeters. This is of course the inside diameter.  

There's no pipe whose inside diameter is 140 millimeters, so I'll choose the next upper inside diameter, 154 millimeters, which is the inside diameter of a 6 inches, Schedule 40, nominal size pipe.
Now, I'll recalculate the velocity within the piping to be able to calculate the loss of head of the water flow.

The cross sectional area of the selected pipe (6 inches, Sch 40) is 0,0186 square meters, based of course on the inside diameter.
0,0278 cubic meters per second divided by 0,0186 square meters gives a velocity of 1,49 meters per second, which I'll use to calculate the loss of head.

All of the calculations have been made using the inside diameter.
Cordially
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-20-2011 11:38 Edited 04-20-2011 11:40
Shane/Giovanni,
In a sense you both are right. One is talking predominantly of manufacturing pipe the other design considerations.
And especially in power the manufacturing specifications for pipe diameter is often irrelevent. Heavy walls for steam service is often designed by ID regardless of ASME manufacturing specifications.
The design engineer will function just as Giovanni mentioned determining ID and minimum wall.
Min wall pipe is quite common in power. And it is always determined by ID since you cannot find manufactured wall thicknesses exactly as designed. Otherwise the number would be theoretically infinite.
ID is based upon the desired flow velocity, thickness upon temp and pressure. The OD will be whatever happens to be available at the time, within limits of course due to weight, restraint, cost, and support issues.
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 04-20-2011 17:24
Just to keep things going, not all tube is exact OD,
Have a look at:
Type K copper (ASTM B88) 2" type K is 1.959 ID, 2.125 OD, .083 wall
2" SS tubing (ASTM 213/269), 1.624 ID, 2" OD, .188 wall
ACR tubing (ASTM B280), happens to go by exact OD
DWV copper tube has the same OD as the Type K, but very thin wall
I think Pipe has been well covered above
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / What is the differece between tube and pipe?

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