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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Undersized welds
- - By welderla (*) Date 05-10-2011 22:23
I got a question about Table 6.1 (6) of AWS D1.1:2000, note table 6.1 (6) in AWS D1.1:2010 is the same.

If the required leg size is ¼” and the weld length is 1000 feet, and the inspector measures the weld is it measure 1/64” below ¼” for the entire length, is it rejectable?
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 05-10-2011 23:24
welderla
Yes
It can only be undersized less than 10% of it's length, It can be as much as 3/32" for up to 10% of it's length.It can not be undersized more than 3/32" anywhere.
Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - - By welderla (*) Date 05-11-2011 02:58
the last two parts of your response isn't very clear.

If I have a 5,000 foot weld and it's undersized on one leg by 1/64" for the whole length, is the whole weld (5,000 feet) rejected?
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 05-11-2011 04:36
I think it would be safe to say that a call to the EOR would be in order.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-11-2011 04:40
I agree.  Technically the weld would be reject but often when we try to "fix" things we muck them up more.  More weld isn't always a better thing.  Let the engineer make the call.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-12-2011 15:07
99205, Jon

NO! Do not call the EOR   Reject the weld as you are supposed to.  File the NCR, if you are supposed to.  Let the Contractor file the RFI to the EOR.  That is not the inspector's job, nor is it any of his business as an inspector.
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 05-12-2011 15:44
Joseph P. Kane

Thank You

Exactly

I meant to also reflect on that and got side-tracked.

Marshall
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 05-13-2011 00:14
Absolutely correct Joe, I posted that as a light hearted response.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 05-11-2011 08:55
welderla
The weld is to be the size indicated, it can be 3/32" undersized for no more than 500 feet of the 5000 or 10%.
It doesn't matter if the weld is only 1/64" undersized it still can be only undersized for 10% of the length or for 5000 feet, 500 ft.
Unless you can bring the other 4500 feet to the indicated size the whole weld is rejectable.
Hope it is clearer now.
Marshall
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 05-12-2011 13:47
waccobird is right, the weld would be rejectable.
A reason why to consult with the engineer who sized the weld to begin, is to allow him to determine the amount of safety factor that was considered during the design calculations. If he left room for play, then he could allow the defect, if he so chooses, and still be code compliant. However it would have to be his call and would need to be in writing.

Tim
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-12-2011 17:24
I don't know what your inspecting or what type of guage your using i,ve never
seen any inspector try and measure a fillet weld  to 1/64th of an inch accuracy.
there is no way that 5,000 feet of weld would all be precisely 1/64 of an inch
undersize
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-13-2011 02:39
I have to say I agree with Joe.  When I said "contact the EOR" I actually meant through the channels just as Joe said.  The NCR or what ever vehicle is used will be the notice to higher powers to determine what course of action should be taken.  Good point Joe!
Parent - - By welderla (*) Date 05-16-2011 01:55
Would anyone think to use "Tolerance of Joint Dimensions" sub-paragraph "Fillet Weld Assembly". 

If there was a 1/16" root opening, the codebook says that you do not need oversize the weld and it would be undesized on one leg...Now, if it's greater than 1/16" then you would oversize by the amount of the gap or demostriaght required effective throat and so on....

This is was teh AWS gave as their answer when i called them up for help with the same question.

Anyone want to comment?  And as for why inpsect to 1/64?  the codebook doesn't say what tool to inpsect with and now or days the way some inspectors inspect, they may just go to that precise of a measurment tool.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-16-2011 12:12
what tool will measure a fillet weld to 1/64th . if i called a weld undersized by 1/64th id get laughed off the job IMHO
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-16-2011 12:52
Joe Pirie

Any electronic Micrometer will do it. 

In any case, I believe the 1/64" dimension was figurative. It was used as emphasis for the Question.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-17-2011 13:04
HOW DO YOU PUT A MICROMETER ON A FILLET WELD
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-17-2011 15:38
digital welding ga not a micrometer im just saying a 1/64 is a ridiculous tolerance for a fillet weld
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-21-2011 09:28
Fillet gages are typically in 1/16 increments in my experience.  If the toe doesn't touch the "lip" on the gage its undersized.  Opinions are a penny a dozen but there's your answer.  :/
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-21-2011 13:41
I'm in Jon's corner on this issue. The standard leaf type fillet gage is a "go-no go" type gage. The weld is exactly the right size, larger than, or smaller than the gage being used.

The fillet gages are provided in 1/16th inch increments from 1/8 through 1/2 inch and then 1/8 inch increments for welds that are larger than 1/2 inch.

I don't believe in interpolating to gage the weld size to the nearest 1/32 inch for gages that are in 1/16th inch increments.  That may be at odds with some of the folks that write the text used for the CWI seminar, but that's my opinion. The structural welding code permits the welds to run undersized for a portion of the weld length as it is, so the code has already made allowances for undersized welds. Those allowances are already pretty liberal in my opinion. I see no reason why the inspector should interporlate the size of a weld using a gage that does not measure, but only compares the weld size to that of the gage. Any two inspectors using the same gage on the same fillet weld are not likely to agree on the interpolated size of the fillet weld. To attempt to do so in the field is inviting disagreement.

As already stated, using the standard fillet gage, the weld is exactly the size of the gage being used or it is larger than or smaller than the gage. If there is a need to be more percise, different gages should be used.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-21-2011 15:33
all you 3rd party inspectors out there go out  and buy one of those fancy digital guages go into
work on monday and tell the  shop QC that he has to repair a fillet weld that is 1/64th undersize
and see how long you keep your job. the black line on the standard fillet weld guage is more than 1/64".
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-21-2011 18:12 Edited 05-21-2011 18:17
It isn't a case of the third party inspector saying the weld is 1/64 inch undersized. To do so would be a mistake a novice inspector would make. The inspector determines if the weld is conforming or it is nonconforming. Simply put; it doesn't meet the acceptance criteria of the drawing or the applicable welding standard. It is then left to the Engineer to determine if the undersized weld meets the intended service requirements of the project.

The abbreviation for inspector (other than the Authorized Inspector) is not spelled "GOD." The inspector simply reports his findings to the Engineer or the client. The work meets the requirements of the approved drawings and applicable welding standard or they are simply nonconforming.

It is interesting to note that I rarely encounter welds that are nonconforming for one reason. If the welds are running undersized, there are usually other problems as well. That is why it is important to evaluate all of the attributes and to note all nonconformances. While the undersized weld may meet the service requirements, the fact that there are unfilled craters, missing welds, unauthorized welds, arc strikes, etc. may be more of a detriment than the fact that it is undersized.  

The welding inspector, whether he or she is a CWI or not, serves as the client’s eyes and ears on the project. The completeness and accuracy of the written report is what the Engineer or the client uses to judge the work being inspected. The final decision to accept or to reject work is not left to the contractor. It is the Engineer or the client that makes the final decision to accept or reject the work. That responsibility may be delegated to the inspector by the Engineer or client, but that responsibility shouldn’t be an automatic assumption.

It is all in the “Word Smithing” of the report. If the inspection report is well written, there is little chance the Engineer or the client will allow the nonconforming welds slip through. 

If the concept is difficult to understand, think of it this way; You and I agree that I will pay you $100.00/hour, but when I hand you your check you discover I only paid you $99.00/hour. Somehow, even though you work with a contractor, I don't believe you would be inclined to say, "Close enough." as you skip merrily off to the bank to cash the check.:lol:

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-21-2011 18:48
JOE

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!! However your sarcasm on this subject is somewhat unwarranted.

It is not feasible to measure the size of a Fillet Weld to 1/64 of an inch.  It is not feasible to measure a Fillet Weld to 1/32 Inch.  Even measuring to 1/16 inch can result in esoteric arguments as to where the actual "toe" of the fillet weld begins.  The toe run-out profile could lead to endless arguments.

However, the OP asked if the weld was undersized for 1/64 of an inch for greater than the allowable length, would the weld be rejectable.  ????? My answer is; undersized is undersized.  If the length of the undersize weld is greater than the acceptance criteria allowance, In this case. D 1.1, the weld is rejectable.   Of course, the Engineer will probable agree to accept the weld.  It is up to the Fabricator to RFI the Engineer and ask for acceptance.  It is the duty of the Inspector to either accept or not accept the weld based on acceptance criteria, and the inspector's job description! 

My answer about using a Digital Micrometer, indicates that I have the tools to meet or even escalate the battle, if there is a challenge to my finding.  Such a finding of 1/64 inch, even though it would be correct, WOULD probably result in my removal from the job. 

Most of the time, in good companies,  the Shop QC inspectors will agree when you show that some weld is non-conforming, or at least defend their disagreement in a reasonable manner.  Here, some judgement, or "Backing Off" on the TPI side may be in order.  However, I have run into many Fabricators, who are basically just criminal organizations, where the only inspection that gets performed is the TPI QA inspection!   

A good example of where this kind of "Micrometer Measurement" argument makes more sense, is in the 0.010 Inch undercut limitation on transverse tension welds.  A Bridge Fabricator, building "Fracture Critical" bridge girders,  argued that he was using a G.A.L. "V-WAC" Gauge, and the undercut he measured was OK. I told him he had to use another Gauge, like the WTPS Gauge.  I took out an Optical Comparator, and showed him that the graduations on the "V-WAC Gauge were thicker than 0.032 Inch, and I said that his determinations based on that Gauge were totally B-O-G-U-S!   Measurement with the "V-WAC" gauge was as accurate as using the "Fingernail Scratch" method!   I was using the "WTPS" Gauge, which is one of the proper tools available for measuring the 0.01 Inch undercut. I also know that there are other factors in measuring such small undercut depth on a transverse bridge weld, with the "WTPS" Gauge, and some empirical judgement is still involved.  However, when the pissing contest continued, I escalated by bringing out my G.A.L. Micrometer Depth Gauge, with the bridging attachment. Here, digital Macro Photos come in handy!

Joe Kane
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-22-2011 14:34
I wasn't trying to offend any one with my sarcasm. you are all right undersize is undersize and according to AWS could be rejectable
Im simply pointing out that if you called an engingeer to question 1/64 on a fillet weld you would be the joke of the day.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-23-2011 11:18
Yo Joe just a lil tip....anyone using that "black line" to judge a fillet weld is asking for trouble....they should be using the other bladed side of the gage where the gage is a go/no-go type of gage and takes the inspector out of the question.....see light under that blade and it's undersized  -end of story....none of this trying to convince whether it is at or below the "black line".
- - By 100perpen (*) Date 06-27-2011 15:47
I believe we have solved the undersize weld issue. Now can someone tell me when the weld becomes OVERSIZE. I have gone with the rule of 10% of the weld size callout or in some cases 3mm over the size callout. Am I in the ball park?
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-27-2011 16:00
Most welding standards do not address the issue of welds that are too large provided they do not interfere with other parts or components.

Some aerospace specifications and one ordinance welding specification I have worked with did address oversized welds for welds below a certain size. Otherwise,  most specifications are silent on the subject.

That isn't to say it is not important to be mindful of oversized welds. They consume more time, more filler metal, and they contribute to more distortion while reducing the profit margins for the manufacturer.

The employer can impose workmanship requirements to address issues that are not addressed by the applicable welding standard. The danger is that the customer can hold the manufacturer to those higher standards if the manufacturer says their welders are held to higher standards than the welding standard listed in the purchase order. The cost of reworking noncompliant welds can result in costly rework without commensurate value added.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-27-2011 16:02
There is no restrictions for oversized fillets that I'm aware of, except where there may be a problem with interferrence or fitment issues due to the extra material...or if the dwg has a tolerance +/- specified.

edit* whoops, I was too slow checking my edition of D1.1 and Al...whipped out an answer first.
- By jbndt (**) Date 07-03-2011 00:36
Out of AWS D1.1 - 2006 

Yeah, It's just commentaries ... Sometimes, ya just gotta stir the pot!!!  :twisted:

C-5.13 Conformance with Design
Either or both legs of fillet welds may be oversized without correction, provided the excess does not interfere with satisfactory end use of a member.
Attempts to remove excess material from oversized welds serve no purpose.
Adequacy of throat dimension and conformance to the weld profiles of 5.4 should be the only acceptance criteria.

Cheers,
jb
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Undersized welds

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