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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / USE OF 5X MAGNIFYING GLASS VS PT
- - By DONK (*) Date 11-04-2002 12:58
IN OUR ORGANIZATION US NAVY SUP SHIP THE POWERS THAT BE IAW THE REQUIREMENTS ALLOW THE SUBSTITUTION OF 5X M/G INSTEAD OF USING PT.THEY LIKE TO DO THIS ON ALUMINUM JOINTS BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN STATED ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS THAT ON THE ROOT PASS IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET ALL THE PT OUT OF THE JOINT AND SO YOU USE 5X INSTEAD.IN OTHER WORDS THE PT WOULD CAUSE CONTAMINATION IN THE SECOND WELD PASS.WHAT IS THE OPINION OF OTHER FOLKS ON THIS WEB SITE CONCERNING THIS?
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 11-04-2002 13:13
I have only seen VT5x in the Navy. It may very well be specified other places but I have never seen it since I got out.

G Austin
Parent - - By DONK (*) Date 11-04-2002 18:23
IN OTHER WORDS ONLY THE NAVY ALLOWS SUBSTITUTING 5X FOR PT. DON KUMPUNEN
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 11-04-2002 22:07
Don,
A semantic question here... is the proper connotation derived from the word "allows" or "requires"; although the former better suggests acceptable alternatives, it also implies a level of inferiority. It seems to me with either test (PT or 5x) the result depends on the skill and dilligence of the inspector.

It's a question, not criticism; I would like to better understand PT [test?] and its implications compared to a 5x [inspection?]... you are describing penetrant testing. Is it, for practical purposes, a test or merely an inspection?

I did not understand Mr Austin to say penetrants were regularly used on root passes on Al in civilian industry; although it was an easy conclusion to attain, I felt it might be a jump he didnt intend we make merely upon establishing 5x as a rare technique. In more ways than one I am out of my element (I likely know less about this than most)

I work with comparably little stuff, but was under the impression critical welds are radiographically or otherwise inspected to a standard that penetrants can never achieve (variables such as cleaning, penetration time, etc. seem to make penetrants imperfect for detecting surface discontinuities and its character is useless for problems sealed below the surface)
I'm sure surface contamination (even dragged in from the cleaning) could cause invalid results in a penetrant test, and I have confidence that properly reflected light under ample magnification can be a trustworthy, albeit more time consuming, alternative even if it does arguabley require more discipline.

In a different context perhaps I should keep out of the thread, but I would like to go out knowing more than when I came in and appreciate the help.
I do use penetrants from time to time on steel. What's the "resolution" of these penetrants anyway, and why not use 10x if something better is really required? I am aware that the surface of a metal can "smear" over a discontinuity due to grinding, polishing, etc, and hide it from visual, but I don't believe that is at issue here. Perhaps I need a refresher defining the benefits afforded by penetrant tests so I can compare them to applicable weakinsses of visuals aided by means of magnification.

I'm unimpressed with penetrants and hold them in low, although convenient, regard. It's possible that I have maintained a misimpression that they "aint such a much" by way of a test...
... like when I ask a particular friend how his wife is, I can count on her as being "better than nothing" according to him.

Although not qualified to judge, I dont see very much difference in the practical result of either alternative, and welcome advice justifying other opinions.


regards
d
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 11-05-2002 00:10
PT is commonly performed on aluminum. Penetrants due not have a resolution, they have sensitivity levels with the sensitivity increasing with the rating (i.e.:a penetrant with a rating of 4 is much greater than that with a sensitivity of 1). The sensitivity refers to it's ability to migrate into finer or tighter cracks or other discontinuities open to the surface.

It is a very practical test method when performed properly, that is why most do not care for it, typically I see this method performed incorrectly, very common. I did not imply anyone has performed the test incorrectly posting replies, only that discontinuites will not be discovered when it is performed or interpreted incorrectly.

I found major IJP/IF on one Al job a couple of years ago - how? The rate and quantity of the pentrant being drawn by the developer is a good indicator. While the opening(s) on the surface were quite small (barely visible even with a 3X magnifier), I knew there were large voids in the interior of the weld - from the weld surface. It is an aquired skill, just like welding (or spelling). My findings were dismissed and a UT tech was called out. He concurred with my findings and excavations were performed verifying the PT results.

The residue left behind by developer, penetrant or cleaner is indicitive of improper cleaning, thereby resulting in contamination of the weld by these materials. Many aerospace/aircraft parts are tested using this method, the next time you board a plane, most of the rotating parts are PT in addition to RT, UT or ET (as well as other exotic test methods depending on the part.) Consider that fact during take off.

Most of my post has been factual as witnessed by myself, or one of my Level II or Level III buddies. Cleaning penetrant of with remover, simply wiping developer off with a dirty rag or paper towels with much lint, improper dwell or developing times often contribute to welding problems.

I have taken several (Al) tests when I worked aerospace where root, intermediate and cover passes had PT performed - passed radiography later. It was a contractual requirement for the welding engineer to perform these tests.

Personally, I don't think PT is better than VT, or vice versa, it all depends on the application, material, and experience of the inspector and technician. As far as test or inspection, the semantics of these terms have been hit on in the Forum in the past, either way - test/inspection/evaluation/examination, competance and experience are usually the determining factors.

Parent - By dee (***) Date 11-05-2002 05:49
Thanks
Parent - By DONK (*) Date 11-08-2002 14:35
TO DGXL thanks for your insight and experience in the PT method.We all appreciate your input on this subject. DON KUMPUNEN
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / USE OF 5X MAGNIFYING GLASS VS PT

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