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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / new weld inspection process
- - By Mac L (*) Date 05-24-2011 01:13
I currently work for a company that has just started working with D1.1, due to a customer requirement. I am the weld shop supervisor, and have recently become a CWI because of this customer. I am trying to start a weld inspection process and getting a lot of push back from management. Being a supervisor, I cannot inspect all of the welds, so I tried to get some assistant inspectors out of the weld shop. This was shot down because all of the welders shoud be inspecting their own work. I agree with this, but the welders here are not very experienced and most have been trained in house. I already have a hard time trying to keep the weld quality up. I was also encouraged not to document any weld defects and repairs. I am not comfortable with this, but I am having trouble finding anything in the code that requires this type of record keeping. I put a lot of effort into a process that was basically turned down completely. Does anyone out there have a basic outline for a weld inspection process that may work? Am I being too cautious? I obviously don't have much experience here, and building a process from the ground up is somewhat challenging, escpecially when there is resistance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Parent - By jarcher (**) Date 05-24-2011 04:18
You need to look to the contract documents about how inspection is to be documented. In the business I am in, oil and gas, very often there is explicit and detailed requirement of when and how and to whom NCR's are submitted. It also sounds like your company has a mile or two further to go in setting up a complete quality system. Your position, for example, weld shop supervisor (production person) has a direct conflict with your role as the designated welding inspector (quality control person) and wouldn't be allowed under a quality system like ISO or API. A quality person would work for and be answerable solely to the Quality Manager who most usually is a direct report to the CEO or President of the company. IOW, a quality control person should not be responsible to anyone but the Quality Manager and whoever his boss(s) are.  That's the way it ought to be, and is in businesses that must maintain stringent quality standards, but I've worked for other outfits that were less exacting a number of times. So I'll give you my best rule of thumb on documentation and inspection. Don't ever sign off on anything you are certain it meets the required standards and are prepared to say so on the witness stand if called to court to testify. Don't omit negatives (Non Conformance Reports) if they are required by the contract or by your companies policy. I have personally known inspectors sued because something failed at a later date. Of course that's something of a he said/she said situation but it will cost you time and maybe money and is something I would want to avoid. Always remember and never forget more than one or two inspectors have been fired for doing their jobs well, just part of the territory, but usually that's not the outcome. The other thing I would say that it is absolutely essential to have senior management on board. If they won't make and enforce policy that institutes and maintains real quality assurance instead of a sham designed as a sales gimmick, then you have no chance at a real QA/QC program, and personally I would tell "Thanks, but no thanks, I'm not putting my name to documentation that attests to something meeting a certain quality standard when I have no way of being satisfied that it really does." In summation, put another way, you need an environment that allows you to be certain beyond reasonable doubt that you effectively fulfill the requirements of QC-1.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-24-2011 11:38
Mac L

The only record keeping requirements in D1.1 are for Welder Performance Qualification, Welder's work frequency record to maintain the qualification, WPS / WPQR records, and NDT related records.   DO NOT GET YOURSELF FIRED OVER THIS!!!!  Your company sets the rules.  Even if the Contract requires special or additional inspection practice or other records, it is not your responsibility to challenge Company rules.   If it is your responsibility to do so, inform management when there is a special requirement, and ask them if you should implement it or ignore it.  If possible, just forget you are a CWI as far as the company practice is concerned.

NOW!!!  Do not burn yourself ethically!   Do not sign off anything that is not done exactly "According to  Hoyle".

Joe Kane
Parent - By ziggy (**) Date 05-25-2011 20:55
mac

documentation is like insurance premiums; paying the premiums can be painful, but not paying them can be worse!

unfortunately one of the purposes of documentation is in the event of unpleasant litigation.

some use a rule of thumb: 'the degree of documentation is commensurate to the degree of risk' - with that line of reasoning if the project is low risk then the amount of documentation might be less and vica versa.

as an owner of a company, i prefer minimal paperwork...but that isn't always practical...

some inspectors present their concerns and recommendations to the company...then they let the 'powers to be' (and their attorneys) make the call on how much paperwork...then the inspector performs accordingly, always ethically and efficiently, and from time to time will express observations, concerns and recommendations to the 'powers to be'.

one attorney described 'terms and conditions' and 'inclusions and exclusions' that show up in contracts as "scars" - somebody got 'burnt' and now they have the 'scar' to prove it in the form of a new 'terms and conditions' on a bid document or in a contract...i think he has a point...

as a side note, some inspectors keep their own 'journal' of activity, in addition to, or absence of, official company inspection reports. but be mindful that some companies have rules about that too...

keep up the good work. the best of times are just ahead!

ziggy
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-24-2011 11:39
Glad to see that you found us here, Welcome Mac!

Hang in there buddy, as a wise inspector on here once told me..."it takes a little while to get a large oceanliner turned around"
...pick your battles wisely and slowly you will be able to see things turn around for the better. ...(thank you Chet Guildford!)

Just don't get frustrated because it doesn't happen overnight. The lack of quality costs your company money, so every chance that you get to get a plug in for stepping up the quality in an area of inspection, either through training your welders, or ramping up an area of inspection until things get under control to where you can live with them, the better. I have a couple welders that I have to babysit and I'm sure every weld shop is like that, but be encouraged when you see some of the welders who take additional steps to make sure what they do is the best job they can do for your company.

Is there a slim chance that you can work with your welders either one on one or in a group for just a few minutes and just go over Table 6.1  and Figure 5.4 and show them what the acceptance criteria is and what the minimums for passing a weld are, so they can help you? I'm willing to bet that there are a few welders will will take the ball and run, once they know what is expected of them.

Give me a call or email me when you get a chance to talk. I'm willing to bet that every new CWI has had their moments where they feel like the quality ship is sinking and they are the only ones who bothered to pick up a bucket to start bailing water.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 05-24-2011 19:00
You are between a rock and a hard place trying to wear both hats as the Production Supervisor and QA/QC Representative for your company.  However it can be done.  As an AWS CWI you studied and passed the 1st chapter pertaining to ethical standards.  Keep strong to those and your own consciencious.

When it comes to inspecting work for that D1.1 customer, you should read the requirements set forth in the awarded PO and the drawings specifications.  If the dwg states that all welding shall be done in accordance with AWS D1.1 (or any other code or standard) then you are obligated to inspect accordingly.  As far as documentation is concerned, that should be spelled out by the customer along with any other requirements such as NDE.

I am fortunate in that I work in an ASME certified facility with a QC Manual that states my status and requirements.

Good luck to ya,
QCRobert
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-24-2011 19:25
I don't want to speak too much for Mac, but I'm somewhat familiar with his situation and their product is a bit unusual in that they design these welded units in-house, so all of the drawings and specs are their own. I haven't seen any written agreement with the customer over what is agreed upon or what is required...but it seems to me that this language is left wide open for interpretation. I've spoken with them in the past about nailing some of this down so the weld shop knows exactly what is required of them.
I just keep encouraging them, but the old saying... "we have done it this way for "x" number of years without any problems" ...rares it's ugly head in almost every conversation.
Hopefully Mac can arm his uppers with some knowledge so they can come around and they will see this new CWI (and in-house inspection) as a selling point for future customers.
Parent - By Mac L (*) Date 05-25-2011 00:18
you're right John, our product being designed in house presents some challenges. Our engineers are not experienced in metal fabrication and weld design, and they have not needed to be until now. As far as the agreements between the customer goes, most of the time it is all in electrical specs, and the customer leaves the metal fab up to us. However, with this recent customer, and the hopes of breaking into a new market there is a lot more interest in my department. The company has high hopes for us, but they are also reluctant to change. I am hoping that we can turn the place into a legitimate weld shop, but it is a long road ahead.
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 05-25-2011 15:49
What does the QC manual say.
and contract.
Parent - - By Mac L (*) Date 05-25-2011 17:10
The QC manual is very limited due to the limited metal fabrication knowledge of the QC dept. The only inspection listed in the manual is that of the individual welder who does the work. I don't know if that works in other places, but here it does not work at all, because like all welders, they always lay down the best bead.
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 05-25-2011 17:30
i know ..as we have the best welders.....just ask them.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 05-25-2011 18:03
NO! I have the best welders. I just asked and they told me so.
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 05-25-2011 18:59
funny stuff
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / new weld inspection process

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