Hi fellas,
I just walk-in to a project for pile inspection. I request the drawings for the designers criteria for inspection reference, but they dont have it. The only thing that I know is that I need the ASTM 252 for piles, but I still need to know which is the correct code to be use.!!!
I will appreciate any reference from you guys!!
Thanks
Ron
Is it the drawings that have no reference or you have no drawings.
Get a plan or print....... something thats been approved.
They have drawings, but they don't have references. Drawings just show the dimensions and civil references. They ask me to take a position to indicate wich code I will use for inspection, I'm not sure if I need the D1.1 or other one.
I find it Odd the customer has not specified, and this info has not been passed down.
In this case the Owner call me for inspection, but the designer does not have the intention to submmit the design criteria and the want me to take any code for inspection.
So someone in that shop pencils a little drawing and says do it like this. Then they tell you to find a code that fits the situation and sign off on it. Good luck with that.
Apparently the designer never thought about welding.
I confess my ignorance. For me, piles have always been a way to store particulate solids, especially minerals. Their cross section is always triangular and, depending on the quantity of material to be stored, their length may be from, say, 30 meters to 100 meters or more.
Back in my days of project engineer I took part in the design of storage piles for urea and phosphate rock.
Evidently you're talking about some other kind of piles that I don't understand exactly what they are. My limited knowledge of the English language is certainly the reason.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Posts/beams driven into the ground.
I'm talking about pier piles (tubes to get into the port for a pier) they are about 60 feet long, but the original piles comes in 40' long, so they have to weld 20' sections.
What is the nature of the pier your working on? Normal shipping, LNG, ?? Where is it located?
Its a normal pier for receive grains (rice, noodles, etc.)
We used D1.1 here in smokey.
Has anyone tried to contact the EOR?
Where is this pier being built?
There has to be permits issued, approved designs, an owner, a contractor, and an engineer.
Anything that involves waterways would involve the U.S. Corp of Engineers and the state's department of environmental protection. A few well placed phone calls should stir up enough interest to ensure representatives from the appropriate officials show up on the jobsite to help straighten out the crooks in the project. By crooks I mean get everyone back on the straight and narrow.
The Owner should be your first contact with questions regarding any outstanding issues. After all, he hired you and he has a vested interest in making sure he is getting what he is paying for. My second stop would be the Engineer of Record and then the building department that has jurisdiction where the pier is being built.
It is not the inspector's responsibility to determine what design code is applicable. The Owner through his Engineer of Record is responsible for providing that information to the inspector. The inspector should have access to the approved drawings with the general notes that specify the design requirements. With that information in hand, the inspector should be able to research the references to determine which welding standard is appropriate and what acceptance criteria is applicable for the NDT methods required to inspect the welds.
It seems the contractor may be sensing the inspector has little experience with piles/piers and is having a great time watching the inspector run in circles. That isn't very professional, but then again, there is a human element involved.
A little homework and a few well placed phone calls on the inspector’s part will permit him to return the favor in spades.
Just my point of view.
Best regard – Al
Just an opinion kidblue but it sounds like you're being set up to maybe take a very hard fall. Be cautious, I know a job is a job but as a bare bones minimum I'd be keeping some very complete notes with dates, times and conversations.
Jon,
I keep notes of everything, doesnt look like a set up. The issue is the designer never contemplate the piers to be welded and contractor just go ahead and start welding.
Where is this job located?
I have to agree with Jon's opinion, I smell a rat.
The owner is the one who contact me. He wants to conduct any kind of inspection as I request, but I still need a CODE to reference.
THanks
This is real easy. Tell the owner to specify the code of record for you in writing. If they are not willing to do that, do not touch it with a ten foot pole.
Apparently the EOR is the owner
Make sure he is a state certified structural/mechanical engineer then. He may have designed it, that doesn't mean he properly engineered it. If the prints don't have an engineer's stamp on them then they are not complete and approved for fabrication nor inspection.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Amen to Jon's comments!
Al
The other posters all have good points and you certasinly do not have much informtaion to go on.
Assuming it was me and that I cannot just walk away from the assignment, I would conduct my inspections per AWS D1.1. It's a good all around code to use.
However, I would be very careful in writing my reports to state:
the welding code is not specified, D1.1 is assumed due to lack of information.
note that the supplied drawings and job information do not appear to have a approval of a responsible engineer
(funny how hitting the wrong key posted this before I finished - dratted "Fat Finger Virus"!)
if I don't know the specific pile material I would note that
f I didn't see the welding being performed I would note that
Most importantly, I would not accept or reject anything, I would state only what I saw. I would also write a "neutral" report - I don't have to criticize but I don't want to praise it up either. That probably will not be a popular position to take but if the job information "is what it is" then my reports would be the same.
It's possible the engineer anticipated full length piles and was not prepared to specify splicing requirements. If he is balking about furnishing this info, he may be considering that this work is beyond his scope with the owner, and maybe it is. My thoughts are that if that is the case, the engineer has the responsibility to ammend his contract with the owner to provide some splice specs.
Also, I've experienced with engineers who consider pile splicing to be part of the Contractor's "Means and Methods of Construction" and expect the Contractor to do all that's necessary. I disagree with this.
I'm an engineer and we do a lot of marine piling with A252 piles. We reference D1.1 on our welded pile splices.
Bob
If the work is per D1.1, the EOR has the responsibility of reviewing and approving welded joint details and the WPS used to weld the joints between the sections.
If I remember correctly, the specification for piles only specifies the minimum tensile strength. Chemistry isn't controlled and contractors often purchase tubulars that are out of spec. That is the pipe cannot be sold as meeting A53, A106, etc., but it still meets the piling specification.
I had one job where the chemistry was similar to a AISI 4130 alloy. The contractor welded the coupons with E7018 without preheat. My job was to observe and document. The welded samples were like glass when they were done welding them.
Best regards - Al
kidblue, in my very young years as a CWI I may have jumped on an opportunity such as you're describing, now in the late Autumn of my career I wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole. It seems easy enough to just defer to D1.1 which is a great code for all around carbon steel welding in the correct applications.
However, if you take responsibility for specifying a code and ANYTHING goes wrong guess where the burden falls? My guess is the first thing an attorney would say is you're not qualified, why did you do so? Sadly, you're only defense would be to claim ignorance which, as we've all heard before, is not an excuse under the law.
Hope you make a good decision, thats a HUGE part of being a certified inspector.
Best advice I've read.
"Know when to hold them and know when to fold them." That was Kenny's advice and Jon is right as usual. There are times when you have to be smart enough to walk away.
Even citing D1.1 as the appropriate code can be misleading. What edition is going to be used? The choice can have major financial implications. As both Jon and I have noted in different forms, it is not the inspector's responsibility to select the appropriate design, fabrication, or welding standard for a particular project. It is the Owner's responsibility, generally through his Engineer, to select the appropriate codes and standards.
Best regards - Al
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am an Engineer Member of Dockbuilder Local Union 1456 (Nature of Business - Welding and Other Stuff) New York Harbor area. When I saw your question I went where you were located info. Puerto Rico was noted. The contract document might indicate what code and/or standard the work is to comply with, i.e. D1.1 or in my current work NYSSCM ( New York State Steel Construction Manual ). My experience includes, lack of preheat, not complying with dry rod practice and such as you describe falling apart when it was lifted. Once I wrote a welding report that said “it looked like a weld”. I suggest in writing asking to what to inspection code and/or other "specification" is the work to be done to.
Sincerely
Len Andersen weld@spemail.org
212-839-6599 8-4 New York Time , 4042 FAX , Co-worker 6381 / 914-237-7689 (H) / 914-536-7101 (Mobil)
POB 1529 / NYC 10116-1529 ( $1090 per year Caller Box GPO NYC )
www.lenandersen.com
