Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Pipe Welding
- - By garygfc Date 07-19-2011 16:06
We are doing CJP groove butt joints with backing on 8" scd 40 pipe per D1.1 2008. The pipe is welded in the 1G rotated position. Welders are qualified per D1.1 on plate all position and unlimited thickness. Are the welders qualified to make these welds? I am being told since the welders are always making welds in the 1G position this is not considered actually pipe welding, per the commentary C-4.22, C-Table 4.10. Is this correct? Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Garygfc
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 07-19-2011 16:20
garygfc
Are you sure it is 1G and not 2G?

But the commentary is talking of straight line welding like say a shear tab connection to the Pipe Axis(centerline) on a column is like welding on plate not the CJP Groove welding of the circumference to the Base Plate.

Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - - By cepennington (*) Date 07-19-2011 17:36
The 1G position on pipe would require qualification on pipe. The commentary is refering to welding the seam of a pipe (or rolled plate) or a shear tab to a pipe. See figure C-4.1. Table 4.10 should answer your question. Plate qualification will only qualify for pipe equal to or greater than 24". Also see 4.27 CJP Groove Welds for Tubualr Connections. This is all coming from the 2010 D1.1.
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-19-2011 21:27
Hi Guys,
Qualification for 1GR is performed on Tubular as per Table 4.9 (2004) and Table 4.10 (2010)
Regards,
Shane
- - By garygfc Date 07-21-2011 22:19
Hello all and thanks again for clarification on question asked in previous post. New question: If qualifying welders to CJP on pipe to 2008 D 1.1 using FCAW is there a prequalified WPS that can be written using joint details from figures 3.4? The joint detail B-U2a-GF seems appropriate exept the groove angle is 45 degrees. Figure 4.24 B, welder qualification with backing, shows 60 degrees.

garygfc
Parent - - By pax23 (**) Date 08-12-2011 14:01
I would say no. The procedure used for the welder pipe test would have to be qualified per Section 4.

Some might argue that you can use the as-detailed and as-fit up to get to the 60°, but I think that is manipulating the code tolerances beyond their intent.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-03-2011 07:15
pax23,
IMHO it is not "manipulating" the code - tolerances are there to be used if required.
If the original joint detail is 45 degrees - the tolerances are +10 -0 for As Detailed and +10 -5 for As Fit Up.
That means the code committee feel that a minimum of 40 degrees and a maximum of 65 degrees included angle will provide the basis for a sound weld.
I personally can't see any problem with using B-U2a-GF as WPS for qualification on Figure 24 (b)
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-03-2011 18:24
The joint details to be used to qualify a welder for tubular joints are depicted by figure 4.24 as referenced in clause 4.26 (1) or (2) as applicable. Notice there are no references to figures 3.3 or 3.4 in clause 4.26, but clause 4.18 does state that the qualification tests are specifically devised  to determine a welder's ability to deposit sound weld. Figures 4.24 (A) provides some latitude in the width of the root opening and the root face when qualifying without backing, but no latitude in the groove angle. Figure 4.24(B) provides no latitude in the root opening, root face, or groove angle.

The prequalified joint details depicted in figures 3.3 and 3.4 are for production welds and have nothing to do with welder performance qualification.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-04-2011 01:50
Al,
Thanks for the clarification but I am rather confused.
Every code I have ever worked with requires welders to be qualified in accordance with a qualified (or pre-qualified) WPS - is that not the case with AWS D1.1 ?
What do you call the document you give to the welder containing essential and non-essential variables prior to performing his weld test ?

This has made me even more confused

4.22 Preparation of Performance
Qualification Forms
The welding personnel shall follow a WPS applicable to
the qualification test required. All of the WPS essential
variable limitations of 4.8 shall apply, in addition to the
performance essential variables of 4.23. The Welding
Performance Qualification Record (WPQR) shall serve
as written verification and shall list all of the applicable
essential variables of Table 4.12. Suggested forms are
found in Annex N.


The essential variables noted in 4.8 make numerous references to Figures 3.3 and 3.4 ?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-04-2011 05:47
Hello Shane;

I guess we have to narrow down our discussion to a particular edition of D1.1 to make sense of all this.

I've looked at the 2006, 2008, and 2010 editions. In the 2006 and 2008 editions 4.8 addresses the method of testing and acceptance criteria for WPS qualification. In the 2010 edition clause 4.8 addresses the essential variable for the different welding processes, but no reference to figures 3.3 or 3.4 is observed. In the 2010 edition Table 4.8 is a listing of the base metals qualified when the WPS is qualified by testing.

The use of a WPS when welding the performance qualification test coupon is required. It must address the essential variables as per Table 3.7 and Table 3.8 (using the 2010 edition) if a prequalified WPS is employed. Item 24 listed in Table 3.8 states that a change in the groove weld detail requires a new WPS (assuming the one you want to use isn't already listed by the WPS). The groove detail (open root tubular joint detail) required by clause 4.27, figure 4.25 (A) is not prequalified. As such it requires a qualified WPS. Figure 4.25 (B) meets the requirements for prequalification when backing is used and the "As Detailed” and the “As Fit-up" tolerances of B-U2a are utilized. With the nominal condition listed for B-U2a joint detail and with the “as Fit-up” tolerances listed, the joint depicted by Figure 4.25 (B) is not prequalified and would require a qualified WPS. Are there ways around the conundrum? I'm sure some astute fellow would say that it meets prequalification status if the joint detail includes the "As Detailed Tolerances" and includes the "As Fit-up Tolerances". That would allow the WPS to be prequalified if the WPS is written for the specific joint details required for performance qualification. However, keep in mind that statement included in clause 4.19 is to the effect that the performance qualification tests included in "Part C" are specifically designed to determine a welder’s ability to deposit sound weld. It further states that the qualification tests are not intended to be used as guides for welding during actual construction. Pardon the artistic license taken to shorten the excerpts.

My conservative position is that it is not the intent of D1 documents to use prequalified joint details and the accompanying tolerances for the purpose of performance qualification. I've taken the same position in several previous posts regarding grooved joint tolerances. I also fail to note provisions for test positions other than flat, horizontal, vertical, overhead, or 6G test positions listed for performance qualification. The range of positions depicted in Figures 4.1 and 4.2 are the required production positions so that the contractor can determine what test positions are required to qualify the procedure or the welder for production welding. The figures are not intended to be "tolerances" for the position of the test coupon. The test positions for welder qualification are depicted in Figures 4.3 through 4.6. In the case of Figure 4.4 there are tolerances listed for the axis of the tubular test coupon, however, there are no tolerances for position listed for plate tests. I take that to mean the flat position would be such that the longitudinal axis of the plate is horizontal to the horizon and the face of the weld is horizontal. The horizontal position is such that the longitudinal axis of the weld is horizontal and the face of the weld is vertical. I believe the same logic can be applied to the other test positions. I use a spirit level when setting up the test coupons. I follow the same logic when contractors attempt to use a prequalified joint detail that includes a back gouge operation. There is no performance test that includes a back gouge operation listed in clause 4.19.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-04-2011 06:42
Hi Al,
I am using the 2010 edition - if you go to clause 4.8 (not Table 4.8) it states that you must comply with Tables 4.5 and 4.6 (these Tables reference Figures 3.3 and 3.4).
Based on the first sentence in 4.22 you must follow a WPS applicable to the qualification test required. There are no pre-qualified WPS's for single vee with backing and 60 degrees included angle (as per Figure 4.24 B).
Does that mean you have to qualify a procedure (with all the associated costs) to be able to perform welder quals or do you revert back to my earlier posting and use a pre-qualified joint (with tolerances for As Detailed and As Fit-Up) ?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-04-2011 16:39 Edited 09-07-2011 15:40
It is important not to confuse or mix the requirements of Clause 4 parts B and C together just as it is important to not confuse or mix the requirements of ASME Section IX Articles 2 with Article 3.  AWS D1.1-2010, Clause 4 Part B (includes clause 4.8) addresses how a WPS is qualified by testing. Part C addresses how a welder is qualified. So, if you are qualifying a welding procedure because it does not meet all the requirements of Clause 3, the information required, such as the essential variables, are found in Part B. That you already know, but there are others reading the post that may not be as familiar with D1.1 as you are.

You noted that the single V-groove with backing using a 60 degree groove angle isn't prequalified if the writer fails to take advantage of the "As Detailed" and "As Fit-up" tolerances of Figure 3.4. If the person writing the prequalified WPS does include the "As Detailed" and "As Fit-up" tolerances, the groove detail is considered to be prequalified provided all the other essential variables are met, in which case there is no need to visit Part B of Clause 4.

If a prequalified WPS is written to address the joint details required by AWS D1.1 Part C of Clause 4 it can be very specific and does not have to include every joint detail included in figures 3.3 or 3.4, nor should it. The prequalified WPS written for the purpose of performance qualification would be used for fillet break weld tests and single V-groove plate tests with backing. Any test for open root tubular joints such as the T, Y, and K test would require a qualified WPS supported by a PQR.

I take the position that a WPS listing all the joint details depicted by AWS D1.1 Figures 3.3 and 3.4 should not be used for the purpose of performance qualification.  It is my contention that the WPS used for performance qualification should be limited in scope and it should include the appropriate sketches, i.e., Figures 4.21, 4.22, 4.24, 4.27, 4.28, 4.29, 4.30, 4.31, 4.32, 4.37, 4.38, and/or 4.39,  for the performance test being administered. To make reference to a weld detail, i.e., joint detail that is not applicable to performance testing is misleading the welder being tested. If someone were to provide me with a WPS that listed all the joint details included in Figures 3.3 and 3.4 it would lead me to believe I could use any of the joint details listed with the attending tolerances for the performance test. As you noted, many of the joint details used for welder qualification are not prequalified when only the nominal and “As Fit-up” dimensions are listed. Only when the “As Detailed” dimensions are utilized is the joint detail prequalified. The “As Detailed” is applicable only when the designer invokes them. Clarity should be one of the goals for the individual writing the WPS and it should be a goal when providing direction to the welder taking the performance test. AWS D1.1 Clause 4.19 makes it pretty clear that only the tests described by Part C are to be used for welder performance qualification. The specific tests required are detailed in Clause 4.21. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - By pax23 (**) Date 09-07-2011 13:59
I think the problem is that most code users would expect that the D1.1 code would provide performance test parameters within prequalified limits. I do not think that is the case. The prequalified joint details are in the code to guide the user to optimal range of joint details, or the easiest range. Now a performance test may not want to use parameters within the easiest range. The code may want to test welders to variables a little tougher then they would normally see. Or it may be forcing the deposition of more beads in a multi-pass weld, something you would not prefer to do in a production weld. Therefore, the performance variables may push you outside of preferred (prequalified) joint details. In that case you need to qualify a procedure to cover your welder test.

That is the way I see it. I am not saying I am right, but it makes the most sense to me.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Pipe Welding

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill