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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Penetration: TIG vs. MIG?
- - By DaveSisk (**) Date 11-18-2002 02:08
Just curious, but I'd suspect that, for the same amperage, you can (in theory) get a little better penetration with TIG than with MIG. Since you have to set the wire feed speed with MIG to the "right" rate, the amount of heat isn't independent of the amount of metal deposited. With TIG, since you control the heat independent of the amount of filler metal you deposit by hand, I would assume you can get better penetration.

Or, put another way, you can get better penetration with an under-powered TIG unit vs. an under-powered MIG unit. Does anyone agree or disagree?

Thx,
Dave
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 11-18-2002 04:48
Dave,
I confuse easily, but I seem to translate the question thus:

an [improper] weld at the wrong parameters will be closer to satisfactory with GTAW than it will with the GMAW process

...somehow the logic becomes too slippery for me.

If the processes are fundamentally different (CC vs CV) it has to be going out on a limb to compare them, no?

I would suggest the focus would be on the difference between TIG's ability to weld without a filler, like an oxy-acetylene flame- little more than merely a heat source, in contrast to MIG's highly dynamic weld puddle (where stick-out, feed angle, and complex physical and thermodynamic issues relative to the location of the electrode become extremely critical) The physics is apparently more complex in MIG

We forget the shield gas's ability to add chemical energy to the WATTAGE (niether Volt nor Ampere are independent) applied to the arc... with this in mind GMAW's utilization of chemical (dissociation of CO2) as well as electrical energy suggests to me greater potential.

Regards,
d
Parent - - By DaveSisk (**) Date 11-18-2002 12:40
My question was indeed focused on the ability to control the amount of filler added with TIG more precisely than with MIG. With MIG, you have to move, you simply can't leave the gun pointing at the same spot until you get enough heat into it. With TIG, you can leave the torch pointing at the same spot for 15 seconds without adding any filler if that's what it takes to form a pool at that particular spot, right? This is why I'm assuming that you could potentially get more penetration with an under-powered TIG vs. an under-powered MIG. With MIG, you'd simply pile filler on top of spot that you didn't penetrate well enough.

Of course, perhaps I'm totally wrong!

Thx,
Dave
Parent - By DGXL (***) Date 11-18-2002 17:17
Amps x Volts x IPM.

If you turn down the WFS on a GMAW you will have to slow down to maintain the puddle. Now the amperage has decreased, but heat input is still as noted in the above formula.

The GMAW process can be modified by feeding less filler metal and increasing arc voltage which typically results in more spatter, slower arc tarvel speeds and will cost more $ to perform. (Eventually you will phase into spray arc transfer provided the correct shielding is employed.)

If you add less filler metal to the puddle of a GTAW, you will have to slow down to allow the joint to fill, but heat input is still as noted in the above formula resulting in an increase of K joules per inch. The type of material being welded may be affected by the "starving of the weld" of filler metal such as many nonferrous materials (i.e.: aluminum).

I think what you mean by "under powered" is less filler metal @ the same amperage for GTAW. This is equates to more heat input and less productivity, this weld cost (much) more $ to perform.

Properly adjusted GTAW or GMAW can provide as much penetration as the power supply/equipment, welding parameters and the material or aplication will allow. I can play with parameters and make either process achieve more or less penetration. Did I mention shielding mediums make a huge difference in penetration patterns? There about 20 macroetch specimens here on the counter in my office using different shielding mediums, electrodes and welding parameters for GMAW, GTAW and FCAW on a variety of materials including disimilar metals joined by FRW. Also have a multitude of macrophotographs of weld cross sections. I think these are what you should look at to "see" what happens when you make adjustments as noted in your post. See if you can get your hands on these types of specimens.

My question to you, why would you want to perform a weld that would cost more $$ to perform. Just my curiosty. It sounds like the physics of welding have really caught your attention. That's very good.

Parent - - By Niekie3 (***) Date 11-18-2002 18:04
I think that I understand what you are saying: If you do not have the right equipment to weld a particular joint, (in other words a low amperage GTAW or GMAW power source to weld a thick section) you will have no possibility to weld it with the GMAW process, but with some creative welding, should be able to weld it with the GTAW. Is this right?

I believe the answer is yes and no. It is so that in the case of an under-powered GMAW power source, you would probably have a lower range of possibilities than with an underpowered GTAW power source. (The big thing here is however how you define the power source as under powered!) It is however incorrect to assume that you can weld anything with GTAW by just "slowing down". Eventually the energy conducted away through the base metal will equal the energy supplied by the arc. At this point, you will also have no penetration with GTAW. This situation is easily achieved when welding something like Copper.

Something else to keep in mind is that the process efficiency of a process like GMAW is generally higher than is the case for GTAW. This means that GTAW has a disadvantage even before considdering any other parameters.

Hope this is what you had in mind.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Parent - By DaveSisk (**) Date 11-18-2002 22:12
You answered the question I was really asking (sorry it wasn't asked as well as it probably could have been). Thanks!

Dave
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Penetration: TIG vs. MIG?

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