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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Safety / Flame Resistance Clothes
- - By Paladin (***) Date 08-02-2011 00:49
I am Qualified with two gas companies. For both gas companies I am an independent contractor doing work for a sub contractor that does  work  the gas company.

One company I have done very few jobs for. Last time I was there, the gas company inspector insisted that I wear flame resistance coveralls. I think he was nervous because the RAILROAD COMMISSION was out checking on jobs that day. I have observed on more that one occasion that the Railroad Commission really puts the fear of God in gas company employees.

It is the gas company policy for THEIR employees to wear the FR coveralls when welding on in-service lines. I am not a gas company employee. I wore the coveralls that day without too much grief. I don't know if you have noticed but it has been real hot lately. That FR stuff seems like a better idea in winter.

I am about to have to do some kind of a 12 inch tie in- reroute job. I am sure it will be one of those full encirclement fittings and that means a lot of welding with with 5/32 and 3/16. I don't know if you have noticed but it has been extra hot here lately.

So my question is, can the gas company inspector shut the job down if I don't wear the suit? What would Willie do? I don't like to cause trouble but I don't want to keel over from heat stroke either.

Thanks,
Floyd
Parent - - By tighand430 (***) Date 08-02-2011 02:04
The gas company inspector can shutdown any job that is being performed on their facilities or row if something doesn't conform to their practices/standards....it's their sandbox and their rules. I know how you feel though. We had to wear frc anytime we were around an open system when I was working for an outfit re-piping a gas storage field for NICOR in IL. It does suck, but have you given any thought to gettin frc shirts and jeans? The cost of them is tax deductible since it's specialty clothing you're required to have, plus it's not any hotter than wearing your normal welding shirt and jeans.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 08-02-2011 03:30
Safety can purdy well do and say (enforce) anything they want. Might as well wear the FRCs. Looks bad to get the boot for Non-compliance on Safety issues. Might take some effort, but I used to get worn out FRC coveralls free from places like Schlumberger and Halliburton. They get a rip in them and throw them away. They come in various weights of cloth too. Some are thinner than a pillowcase. Boxer shorts and a "T" shirt underneath, and your about as cool as you are going to be in 100 plus temps. The more FRCs are washed, the more flame retardant is removed from them and they get more breathable, as in comfy. From a personal safety point of view, this not good. But even well washed/worn FRC's usually are "compliant", and looks good on the incident report should any thing (God forbid) happen.
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 08-02-2011 14:12
The chemical can be washed out of cotton cloth, but if you can find Nomex cloth, there's nothing to wash out, as it is the cloth itself that is FR.  That stuff is flame retardant forever.  It's only concern, is picking up lint from other clothing.
Parent - - By Airdale Date 08-10-2011 15:18
WRONG! Current methods of treating cloth make the fire retardency permanent. The old "jean cloth" was treated with a borax compound that washed out. It is not used any more, that I am aware of.
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 08-10-2011 16:05
Boric acid and borax fire retardants are coming back in popularity.
Particularly because of the health dangers of other chemicals (look up tris to see a long history of some nasty fire retardants used in clothing).

Yes, most of todays treatments are much more wash resistant, but they all wash out to some extent. 
Here's something to consider.  The blue color in jeans is actually a solid powder that is deeply embedded into the cotton fibers.  That's why your wash water turns blue every time you wash jeans, and it's why jeans get lighter in color with every wash.  The idea, is to have it last through enough washes, that sufficient quantities remain, over the useful lifetime of the garment.  I've never had blue jeans lose all their color, before they were nothing more than rags.
To some extent, you're counting on the manufacturer's claims and testing.  Nothing lasts forever, but many claim you can get 50+ washes.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-02-2011 04:49
It will be hot and nasty.

But is this the hill you want to die on?

Risking being run off for a safety violation may follow you further than you think.

Drink lots of fluids!
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 08-02-2011 12:16 Edited 08-02-2011 12:52
Thanks for the replies. I do plan on getting and taking a FR shirt with me just in case. I am about as heat resistance as anyone, but it is brutal down in a deep bell hole with 100 plus degrees.

Superflux, I hear you on well washed clothes. I try to buy my welding clothes in the fall when the weather turns cool. That way when sumner comes around they are much more comfortable. A new shirt is hot and it's been my experience that they are much more likely to have holes burned in them (and you too) when new. They shed fire better when all the lint and fuzz has been sucked out by the dryer. I have never been one to bother with starch too much.  

Floyd
Parent - - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 08-07-2011 21:38
Most places are going to fr clothing on the right-a-way, at least the shirt. sleeves rolled all the way down every button snapped except for the top one.  on a hot tie-in its shirt and pants for anyone in the hole.  the helpers are still wearing plastic hard hats and saftey glasses which makes no sense to me, i'll go with at least a metal hard hat if i was doing a lot of hot work.

The fr clothing for hot work doesn't bother me but, fr all the time is stupid!  I hear rumors that chesapeake is sueing osha for deaths related to heat strokes from mandatory fr clothing? the ppe i choose to weld in is far superior to the cheap fr clothing that they force us to wear which leads me to wear another welding sleeve over the shirt or just continue to have my arms burnt to a crisp from sparks.  what can you do rules are rules, you can drag up or adapt and over come....

As for your question yes you will get ran off for not following a companies saftey practices no matter how trivial or stupid you believe they are.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 08-07-2011 23:20
Low_Hydrogen

I haven't heard of any deaths caused by FR clothing / heat stroke in the USA.  Can you cite a source of that information?

Joe Kane
Parent - - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 08-13-2011 02:54
No I sure can't.   Like I said just a rumor I heard in the patch.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 08-13-2011 06:44
I've caught myself on fire a couple of times.  Scary stuff, flame retardant material only for me.
Parent - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 08-14-2011 03:32
I have to and I'm all for saftey.   I just don't see the need for hands to wear heavy long sleeve fr on the right of way on new construction?  and I don't think they stand up as well as the shirts i choose to wear while laying line.

now in a hot situation tie-in, line crossing I'm all for it. But if I was throwing skids and it was a 110 out I would think the danger of having a heat stroke would be greater than catching on fire??
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-15-2011 01:53
Back in the early '80s I was working in a metal stamping plant. A setup man, also in His early 20's was welding something on a feed rack to a coil fed press. None of Us wore any protective anythin except a hood and sometimes gloves. A rag in His pocket had been set afire from sparks, He didn't know it yet.

I hollered "KYLE YOU ARE ON FIRE" from across the shop.

He puled the rag out of His pocket and put it out. then He shouted

"WHEN YOU ARE ON FIRE,PEOPLE GET OUT OF YOUR WAY"

This is a line from Richard Pryor.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 08-15-2011 03:26
Just finished a project where the contractor has changed their policy on heat where if the temperature exceeds 100 degrees, the crew can only work 30 minutes out of an hour and if the temp exceeds 115 degrees work ceases. The contractor requires all workers to wear FR clothing and has had a spate of heat exhaustion and two heat strokes in the last 90 days. No deaths but the 2 heat strokes wound up being recordable.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 08-15-2011 15:56
dbigkahunna

I have worked in pipe chases where the temperature exceeded 125F.  That is really dangerous for someone my weight, and even other welders had trouble breathing at first. (Especially the smokers!).  A local utility routinely has workers in emergency power boiler repairs and pipe chases at temperatures of 140F.  I always wore full leathers.  NYC's Con-Ed has a no entry policy even with breathing assistance and a cooling vest of 160F,  but I know that my skin would blister above 130F.

I was 30 years younger then, and such a temperature now would probably kill me in short order.  However, 115F sounds like a routine summertime temperature in south Texas, Arizona, Nevada and southern California.  How do they get any work done.  I worked on a 16 inch gas line where the pipe temperature was 152F, and the ambient temperature above the ground was 106F in the afternoon.  The secret there was that the bell hole temperature was 20F cooler, except for radiation from that hot pipe.
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 08-15-2011 22:21
They start at 6 and shut down at 2. And foreman will get dinged if the safety people come up and the temp is above the maximum. Working in full FR with leathers ain't for sissies. The long days are over. I guess they plan to make up for it in the winter. Don't know the long term implications for the contractor, but the contractor is run you off serious about it. Again, two recordable s can cripple a contractor in today's safety environment.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-08-2011 12:09
Low_Hydrogen,
   Just a heads up (FYI), metal (aluminum) hard hats have not been OSHA compliant for many years now.

jrw159 :cool:
Parent - By jbndt (**) Date 08-10-2011 13:55
Loggers still like them ...
Compliant or not!

Cheers,
jb
Parent - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 08-13-2011 02:59
I'm sure you are correct but, I still think they are safer in a hot work situation. doesn't really matter, if i'm in the hole I've got a hood on and a rod in my hand.......:wink:
- - By jbndt (**) Date 08-13-2011 18:29
Low_Hydrogen,

The reason OSHA is not a fan of those nice light ‘tin hats’ is, because they are “electrically conductive”.

Have a look at the (usually brown) ‘old school’ fiberglass hard hats that iron-workers wear. (Fibre-Metal)

Slag does NOT melt through them, like the plastic ones. (Don’t ask!)  :eek:

They’re heavy as hell but, you can’t beat them for those ‘special occasions’. 

Cheers,
jb
Parent - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 08-14-2011 03:36
Yeah we were just talking about those fibre-metal hard hats!
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-15-2011 01:55
"because they are “electrically conductive"

But how else can You keep "THEM" from reading Your mind?
- - By burleigh26 (**) Date 10-19-2011 01:08
I'm working for a gas company that requires FRC cloths.  Never had to wear them before. They said we have to wear them to save us from flash fires. But in a flash fire, the fire is still hot enough to burn your skin, it will melt your plastic hard hat to your head. I've worn them 3 times and they are torn to threads. My opinion is that FRC are a waist of money. I talk to company reps from a few different companies and all give me the same answer, after 3 washes 95% off the chemical is gone and I'm not buying new cloths every week.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-19-2011 03:51
Luke

Wear Leather.  It can be washed in a washing machine and dried in a drier.  There are no nylon / or any other synthetic chemicals to melt on to your body.  The fire resistance won't wash out either.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By chickweldor (*) Date 10-19-2011 15:26
you can wash your leathers?! they don't shrink or dry up? I always thought it would.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 10-19-2011 16:09
I just brush mine off.  I had an old timer tell me once, "my leathers are my resume".
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-19-2011 16:14
You can wash your leathers.  I use tide soap, and Mr. Clean when there is a lot of grease on them.  It is important to finish them in a dryer, so the leather does not shrink, and stays supple.

Joe Kane
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-19-2011 16:31 Edited 10-19-2011 16:40
Burleigh,
If you go the leather route, you would most likely have to wear it fully covered, as in pants, shirt and not just a bib apron with front leggings. The Harley Davidson Store will suit you up for a fee that will make Nomex a very affordable option. AND!, you would be wearing this leather all day long. Climbing or crawling through manways is not easy in regular work wear, let alone dressed up like the Terminator.
If a plastic hard hat is melted to your head, you are not going to be worried about ANYTHING. YOU ARE MOST LIKELY DEAD!
I don't know of anyone that would wear FRCs by choice. It is usually a Safety requirement and the only choice you have is to work in some place that does not require such clothing. The refineries and Gas plants have this and other safety considerations for your protection and their financial interests. These are the jobs that pay the Big Bucks. You have to spend money to make money...
Flame retardant does not mean Welder proof. The sparks do burn holes and high heat will ruin them.
If your clothes have the FRC label sewn on (I do know those unscrupulous types who have had them removed and sewn on to other clothing...), and the chemical has been washed out, who cares? you are still in compliance if that is your only concern.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-19-2011 22:34
chickweldor

I wash mine in Woolite

It helps the life of the leather.

But I don't think Leathers will satisfy the Safety Coordinator on a job really requiring FRC

Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-20-2011 00:49
Marshall

In what way will full leathers not qualify as FRC?  As Far as I know, regular welding leathers (Not Motorcycle leathers or S&M accouterments) far exceed the ASTM, FAA, NIOSH & NIST FRC standards.  I once won this type of argument with the US Army Aviation Branch when they were addicted to NOMEX.  (Of course, at the time most Army Aviation participants worked in Viet Nam, and there the impermeability of leather lost the argument to that completely porous (and Cool) NOMEX.)

However, what happened in 1969, might no longer be applicable today!  Do you have any references?

Joe Kane
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 10-20-2011 09:25
Joe Kane

Full Leathers covering shoulder to waist including wrist and covering waist to ankle excluding feet might

NFPA  in 4.3.1 Selection of Flame-Resistant Garments.

4.3.2 Garments shall be selected that cover both the upper an lower and flammable underlayers as completely as possible,(shoulders to waist including wrists not hands and waist to ankles not inclusive of feet).

I haven't checked NIOSH Standards for this.

I very rarely have to comply with any FRC requirements.

But occasionally a trip to the local fuel Tank Farm will require I put on Coveralls to get in to the project.

There may be some welding leather apparel makers that have full leather gear that can appease the Safety coordinators but I haven't seen them.

So Unless you are dressed in full buckskin I don't think they would count them.

But I have been wrong before

Marshall
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Safety / Flame Resistance Clothes

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