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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need advice on welding topiary frames
- - By Zyzyx Date 11-20-2002 21:00
First thanks for all the great info - reading through all the old posts has been an education.

I need to weld up some topiary frames using 1/8 " and 1/4 " steel rod. Should I have any problem doing that with a stick welder ? What would be the smallest diameter rod/wire that I could weld ? What would be the largest? Would an inexpensive wire feed welder be able to weld two 1/4" rods together. Most of the joints are going to be where the rods cross.
Is there a kind of spot welder that could do the job...I envision setting the tips/jaws on either side...hitting a button and having the rods welded together.

Also what would be the best way to coat these to keep them from rusting, or at to at least slow it down. Rustoleum? some of those rust conversion coatings? etc..

All help Appreciated.

Thanks
Parent - By dee (***) Date 11-20-2002 22:07
Zyzyx
I dont know how much trouble you have starting an arc with a stick welder, but it can be a nusance for me to only have 1/4 inch to work with; you pay for features to make initiating the arc easier.

Within the limits of the equipment I have at my disposal I would pick up my oxy-acetylene torch and braze the stuff together. My opinion however seems historically to be widely contested. Nevertheless, other opinions considered, I would use my torch and braze it. If the construction got a bit complex where there was a risk of melting a previous joing a lower temperature alloy, like silver solder, will flow without disturbing the hotter stuff.

The bronze is really quite strong if the joing is properly engineered and constructed.

There is a product called "RUST DESTROYER" which provides a highly flexible film (they demonstrate it on tinfoil and it will nt crack when flexed) which will serve quite well as a primer even over light surface rust. It is guaranteed for I believe five years. A laquer thinned with the correct chemistry can dry to handle in about fifteen minutes, or less given good conditions; you might want to consider it if the EPA isnt concerned about the emissions you'll be generating (as a onsey-twosey garage project)

Regards
d
Parent - - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 11-21-2002 03:15
a little 120 volt wire feed welder will do it no problems. for speed, accuracy of weld, and ability to hold pieces together w/ 1 hand, a wire feeder is what I'd use. just 2 tack welds on both sides of the rod and u got it stuck together in less than 3 seconds. and if you need to, you can also butt weld 2 pieces together and grind the excess bead off and make it look like it's a solid piece.

I've used rust converter coatings...very nice stuff.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-21-2002 12:53
Just my preference, but I'd use the 120v wire feeder with a .030" dia. self shielding flux core wire. It's easy to do what you needing to do. point it at the joint and pull the trigger until you have put enough weld down.
John Wright
Parent - By dee (***) Date 11-22-2002 05:48
This paint is not your typical converter coating, although it seems to share some of the same chemistry it is highly pigmented. You might enjoy tring it if you run accross a small can in your travels.

Your GMAW process is apparently more practical according to consensus, but there is a difference in the appearance of the two types joints, and the torch does offer conveniences to offset my need for a jig (I'd probably use a jig in either case) with which I am more comfortable.

The point was pre-conceeded; I'd say your opinions are sound although I'd be more comfortable with the alternative I prefer.

Regards
d
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 11-22-2002 22:36
I would check with my local spot welder supplier to see of those 110v spot welders have the power to weld the 1/4" diameter cross wire welding. You may have to get special electrode tips made, but they may have them also. This would be my first choice if I had a lot of them to do, and would provide the best looking joint. If you ever want to do other welding this may not be your best bet.
Parent - - By Zyzyx Date 11-23-2002 03:46
Thanks to everyone for your replies.

Dee. I had thought about brazing but have never actually done it. I'll investigate that some more thanks.

So does everyone agree that a stick welder would be to difficult to use on such a small joint. I would prefer to use a stick, as I would have options for other types of welding later.

I tried doing some joints with my brothers wire feed welder and was not too happy with the results. Very definitely could have been my lack of experience etc. But the welds did not seem to penetrate very far. I will check to see what type of wire was in the welder. Anyone on the Central Coast of California willing to be paid to give me some basic welding lessons :)

Looks like I will be buying a stick or wire feed welder. And if there is much demand for these things will seriously look at a spot welder setup to increase speed. Any suggestions for purchasing welders and welding supplies online?

Thanks Zyzyx
Parent - By dee (***) Date 11-23-2002 07:36
Z
Buying online on a crredit card offers some protection as provided by the terms of the issuer of the card, who as far as I know allways assist in settling issues about returns, etc, according to the vendors terms and in accordance with the law... understand the vendors policies because the card companies judge if the vendor has followed his own rules... no returns means just that, etc.

I'd avoid companies that don't have a telephone line conspicuously advertised, and when I call it I expect a person, not a machine, to answer with the company name. I'm looking for some kind of evidence the company has some substance, that I can speak to a human and not easily be put off or ignored in event of difficulty, and is not being run out of the trunk of somebody's fly-by-night car. That satisfied, we pays our money and takes our chances.

I have posted remarks about the value of building a repoir with the welding supplier. For me it's a valuable asset worth the investment and time. You consider both the ethics and what the future will hold if you get a demonstration from the local distributor (who is investing his [valued] time in good faith to answer your questions and provide good advice) and save a couple of bucks buying it elsewhere when you bring it back to him for service, or have to buy consumeables or supplies locally rather than on-line. Usually you don't get to keep hold of the couple bucks for long.
I buy online when I know the product and don't need or want outside advice or influence. It certainly has it's place, but in the context of advice from the self-affirmed spokesman for the minority opinion, I wouldn't recommend it in your case.

While here let me suggest you begin experimenting, if you decide to, with brazing using a thin gauge cadmium free silver-solder wire and the appropriate flux.
Brazing is what they call a capillary process; it utilizes capillary attraction to pull the liquid filler metal fully into the prepared joint. Also, the filler is drawn to the heat. It's strength is not in the fillet, but in the amount of surface area of the two pieces to be joined in contact with one another (strength is proportional to fit- gaps cannot be filled and maintain maximum strength vry close to that off steel)

The key is cleanliness, fluxing, fit, and heat...

...tin-lead solder works similarly but at lower temperatures and is where to start, graduating to higher temperature silver solder and finally the alloys which melt at highest temperatures. The complexities increase with temperature, so it's nice to eliminate those variables by starting at low temperatures; the equipment and fuel consumption is also cheaper, but I'd be unable to consider working metal without an oxyacetylene torch in any event...which also, by the way, welds nicely in trained hands.

Regards,
d
Parent - By bzzzzzzzzzz (**) Date 11-25-2002 01:09
Well I read the posts. Then I learned what the heck topiary frames are! Had no Idea the frames that contain those amusement park entrance bushes had a special name. Without going into gruesome detail... What is the errrrrr....most unusual shape someone has wanted to shape a hedge into? Just curious.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need advice on welding topiary frames

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