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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Some question about AWS D1.1 welder cetificate.
- - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-24-2011 11:52
Dear all:

I have some question about AWS D1.1 welder cetificate.
1. The base metel is no limited after qualified with A36 for welder. The unlimited base metel is only for AWS material?
2. If we qualified with EN standards material S355J2 carbon steel, this welder can weld A36 or not?

Thank you very much

David
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 08-25-2011 06:26
Hello playboy:cool:

Answers to your questions can be found in Table 4.12 of D1.1

You are fortunate enough to identify the material spec. For us, we only use scrap metal we pick up from smokey mountain :lol::razz::yell:.

~Joey~
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-25-2011 22:40
Thank you very much. I know the table 4.12 of D1.1
But I want to know the EN material S355J2 welder can weld the A36 or not.
There is no sentence ablut it in D1.1.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 08-26-2011 02:20
playboy:cool:

It will not be easy for you if you don't know how to interpret the code.

Now that you know Table 4.12, I will not provide you a direct answer, however, I may assist you to learn on your own by asking you the following questions

1. What is the meaning of Essential Variable?
2. If it is not an essential variable as listed in Table 4.12, do you need to re-qualify the welder?

Please reply and let me know your answers.

~Joey~
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-26-2011 11:39 Edited 08-29-2011 10:53
Dear Joey:
Good Morning!

Yes, material is not an essential variable changes.
But this is only USA standars. So I think the material within the AWS D1.1 is not limited.
But if the material is out of the AWS D1.1 standard, there may have some limitation.

If as you mind, the A36 welder can weld every thing? Aluminum? Copper?......
Obviously he cann't. The AWS D1.1 limited the welder's material.

Do you think so?

Thank you very much!

David
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 08-27-2011 02:48 Edited 08-29-2011 06:39
A350-LF is the US equivalent to S355J2.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 08-29-2011 05:43
playboy1898:cool:

No offence but I think you need to wear blinkers so that you can remain focused on what is in front of you:eek:.

Your subject is welder certificate and your concern is the material spec of test coupons that have been used during performance qualification test. You already said that the material is not an essential variable, so if it is not an essential variable do you still need to requalify the welder?

Can you use D1.1 for Al & Cu materials?:fat:

Cheers:razz:
~Joey~
Parent - - By Skaggydog (**) Date 09-19-2011 16:35
"blinkers" ?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-19-2011 17:26 Edited 09-19-2011 17:30
I think this is what he means   :)
.
"Do not turn to the right nor to the left;..."  Proverbs 4:27
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 09-20-2011 04:24
Lawrence is correct:lol:
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-20-2011 06:27
He meant to say "blinders.":roll::eek::twisted::wink::cool:
Where in the heck did "blinkers" come from???:lol::lol::lol::razz::roll::wink:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 09-20-2011 07:25
Horse Blinkers?  Sounds kind of Amish to me.:lol:
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 09-23-2011 03:27
Maybe he was replying from a smart phone that corrects you?!
Parent - - By jarcher (**) Date 08-26-2011 17:37 Edited 08-26-2011 17:40
Ok lemme see if taking a different tack might be more illuminating.

Under Clause 1 of D1.1 the material that D1.1 applies to is defined. S355J2 is most likely to be nearly equivalent to ASTM 633 according to http://www.mesteel.com/info/equivalent.htm.
Its close, but, according to our source, not an exact substitute. So we now know that what we have is a low to medium carbon steel that falls in the type of materials within the scope of D1.1 but no exact match to materials listed in Clause 3. Therefore, we have to qualify a WPS under the rules of Clause 4, D1.1. After successfully completing a PQR and writing WPS using that PQR as a basis, then and only then, we can test other welders to our completed WPS (the welder doing the PQR being of course qualified for the WPS). So....

1. A welder qualified under D1.1 can weld any material within the scope of D1.1 as long as a valid WPS exists for that material. Your example material must have a WPS qualified under Clause 4 in order for *any* welder to be qualified to weld it under D1.1.

2. It would follow, since material is not an essential variable as others have pointed out, that a welder that passed welder's qualification using the S35512 WPS would be qualified to weld on A-36 or any other material that falls under the scope of D1.1 as stated in Clause 1 assuming the employer/contractor has a WPS for that material.

Edit: Grammar
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-26-2011 22:59
Dear John Archer：

Nice to meet you.

But we can not find the related sentence about how to deal with this oversea's material in D1.1.
The A36 welder may weld S355J2 when there have WPS.
The S355J2 welder can weld S355J2 when there have WPS.
The S355J2 welder can weld S235J2?
also can weld A36?
The AWS D1.1 have no rules about it.
Parent - By jarcher (**) Date 08-28-2011 15:13
I'm sorry I can't explain it any more clearly than I already have. If this is a question that is related to a contract obligation and you don't understand what I told you, perhaps you should retain a consultant.
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 08-29-2011 06:07
playboy1898:cool:

Focus on Table 4.12 of AWS D1.1

~Joey~
Parent - - By hagain55 Date 09-17-2011 02:20 Edited 09-19-2011 11:47
deleted spam
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 09-17-2011 07:02
:eek:
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-17-2011 12:06
Doug, did something just fly by?:eek:
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 09-17-2011 16:43
lol, I was just wondering if that post was a Google translation.  Being slightly familiar with German, Spanish and Latin, I can't figure out what language is being translated.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-18-2011 04:31
Just a spammer.  What a joke too.  He's in several threads.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By playboy1898 (*) Date 09-19-2011 10:30 Edited 09-19-2011 10:34
:cool:
Thank you very much!
1.the unlimited material: Some Engineer think it is limited by D1.1. Some Engineer think it is not limited by D1.1.
2. Yes it is not the essential variable in table 4.12, but Some Engineer think the material is out of D1.1, so they think the welder can weld the test material only!
- - By jbndt (**) Date 08-27-2011 17:51
David,

If a magnet will stick to it, I’m sure he CAN weld it.  :twisted:

Now, is he “qualified” to weld it?
And, to which standard?

You have been spinning your wheels for two days …

The bottom line is your question can only be answered by the Engineer of Record.
If the engineer approves it, you’re good to go!

Get a “Request For Information” or “Engineering Change Order” in writing to cover it.  (RFI or ECO.)  :cool:

As it stands now, AWS = American Welding Society.

Unfortunately, European steels do not carry over too well… At least not yet!
Perhaps in the 2015 edition this may change!

“An approved ANSI/EN/ISO standard”.  :eek:

Who knows?
Stranger things have happened!

Cheers,
jb
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-29-2011 11:09
Hi Jimmy:

Yes!
The problem is some CWI and engineer said it is ok! The S355J2 welder is qualified to weld the A36.
But some CWI and engineer said: Oh, No! He can not weld it.
What can I do now!

Thanks a lot!

David
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-29-2011 11:56 Edited 08-29-2011 12:02
John Archer has given the best answer I've read.  I only have the 2006 Edition and earlier but I don't believe this clause (copied below) has changed (pertinent parts are bolded):

4.7.3 Base-Metal Qualification. WPSs requiring qualification that use base metals listed in Table 3.1 shall qualify other base metal groups in conformance with Table 4.8. WPSs for base metals not listed in Table 3.1 or Table 4.9 shall be qualified in conformance with Section 4. The use of unlisted base metals shall be approved by the Engineer.

So, if you're going to follow D1.1 Rules, your Engineer MAY approve the unlisted base metal, BUT a WPS must be QUALIFIED.

Yes, the answer above is regarding WPS and not the welder. 

It seems to me that if the welder qualified on an EN material the engineer could accept his qualifications to weld on A36 since base metal oddly does not appear to be an essential variable under Table 4.12.

Not sure it can be made any clearer?
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-31-2011 23:01
Dear jon20013:

Is the every steel No. like S355J2 S235JR S275J0......need to do WPS qualification test one by one?
Because there are no group classification for these steel Nos.
So we need to qualified the welder the same way.
Do welder qualification test one by one for these steel Nos?

Thank you for your great helps.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-01-2011 02:52
I think my previous response was very clear but to make it even simpler:  Qualify WPS one by one? - YES.

Qualify welder one by one? - NO

Now, keep in mind, the above is ONLY if you are working to AWS D1.1 requirements.
Parent - By playboy1898 (*) Date 09-05-2011 23:19
Dear Jon:

Qualify welder one by one ? - NO

Where can find this answer in AWS D1.1?

Thank you very much.

David
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-29-2011 12:05
Jimmy, you might laugh but it is coming: “An approved ANSI/EN/ISO standard”

Until recent years D1.1 Members have avoided addressing foriegn steels but they have now opened their eyes and are more willing to do so.
Parent - - By jarcher (**) Date 08-29-2011 16:23
Standard consolidation will be a huge boon to everyone. Since the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry are the same the world over, it's self evident that codes must have a lot in common if they have the same goals and use the same material: various metallic alloys. But it takes a platoon of Philadelphia lawyers to keep on top of the smorgasbord of codes that presently obtain.
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 08-30-2011 11:37 Edited 08-30-2011 22:59
Dear jarcher:
Cheer!
Very good suggestion!

But when will it come true?
May be 1000 years later!:twisted::wink::yell:

Do you know? If Standard consolidation, there are huge lost for some partys like AWS, ASME.......

Cheer!

David
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 09-01-2011 13:34
pb,
On the contrary. Absorbing foreign material specifications can increase the application of Codes such as the AWS D's and ASME Pressure Piping and Boiler Codes.
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 09-01-2011 22:35
Dear js55：

Thank you very much.

Do you have any comments on the topic of this discussing about the certification of S355J2 Welder?

Best regards!

David
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 09-02-2011 12:19
I cannot add anything to the excellent explanations of john and jon.
However, I will say this in response to an earlier post of yours. At the risk of stating something you may already understand, and of which has been stated ad nauseum in here, the Code is not a 'cookbook', it is not an instructional manual. There will be many things that it does not address explicitly (thank God) and so it falls to engineering. If you find nothing to prohibit, and you wish to do it, then it needs to be engineered. If you are uncomfortable that you may be overlooking something, welcome to the party.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-02-2011 13:48
Here, here and BRAVO js55.  Only wish it didn't take so many people to realize the same.  (I'll freely admit it took me many years to quit "hanging my hat" on code "requirements.").
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 09-05-2011 23:33
Dear JS55:

The things make me puzzle is Some CWI or Engineer said it is ok!
But Some said No.
This is decided by the understanding of themselves for the code D 1.1.
This can makes confusion in engineering works.

Thanks a lot.

David
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-06-2011 02:28
Playboy, I am going to probably sound insulting and I don't mean to.... which language is your first language?  It clearly isn't english?  Many people have answered your question, each with a piece of unique insight and yes reference to where the answer can be found in D1.1.

Please re-read this entire thread once again.  Your questions are making you sound stupid and I'm sure that's not the case?  If not stupid, is it lazy (try looking for the answer yourself).

Anyway, I've already apologized for sounding insulting but I suggest you get on with it one way or another.

Bartender, Next!

EDIT: Here's a hint ~ go back and re-read the very first reponse to your post.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 09-06-2011 02:58
I was thinking the exact same thing earlier.
Parent - - By playboy1898 (*) Date 09-06-2011 11:32
Hi Jon：

Yes, the EN material WPS is approved by the Engineer.
But they don't approved the welder to weld the A36!
They said the welder can only weld S355J2.

Thanks

David
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 09-06-2011 17:42
The engineer has the final word.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-06-2011 23:13
David,
The engineer is wrong - end of story.
Unfortunately, as 99205 stated the engineer has the final word.

Table 4.8
PQR Base Metal
Any Unlisted Steel (S355J2) to Any Unlisted Steel (S355J2) or Any Unlisted Steel (S355J2) to Any Steel Listed in Table 3.1 or Table 4.9 (A36 for example)

WPS Base Metal Group Combinations Allowed by the PQR
Only the specific combination of steels listed in the PQR

So 2 x PQRs are required
S355J2 welded to S355J2
S355J2 welded to A36

Now go to Table 4.12
Base Metal is not an essential variable.
After performing a Welder Qualification Test in accordance with AWS D1.1 welders can then weld any material listed in AWS D1.1 plus they can also weld S355J2 to itself or S355J2 to A36 (because you have qualified welding procedures for these unlisted materials).
If you were wanting to weld A36 to A36 then you just write up a pre-qualified WPS and your welders are then qualified to weld that as well.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By playboy1898 (*) Date 09-07-2011 11:18
Dear Shane:

Thank You Very Much!

David
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Some question about AWS D1.1 welder cetificate.

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