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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / WPQR Qualification
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-20-2011 12:06
Good Morning looking for a little confirmation.
The company ran a WPQR for A514GRADE Q to A709GRADe70hps

They ran this WPQR in the 1G or flat position according to table 4.1 in AWS D1.1  this qualifies them to
weld in the flat position once a Wps has been written.

The company wants to write a wps for 2g and weld in ther horizontal position   according to table 4.1 they are not qualified to make that weld
Table 4.5 states that change of position is an essential variable and that a WPS must be requalified not a WPQR.

Since the company already has welders certified to the 2g position can they make this weld?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-20-2011 13:30
Sure!

As long as ALL of the essential variables are listed in the WPS they qualified to as listed in section 4 of D1.1, and I mean all of the essential variables -that is - unless the EOR  will give a waiver to approve the welders instead... I'm not advocating this last alternative but, I've seen some strange stuff in my day and one was just that.:eek::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-20-2011 13:57
Hi Henry was the sure mean that they can make the weld?  My level 111 says they can only weld flat
and they have to take a wpqr  in horizontal position. okay Henry If im reading you right they can make the weld
as long as they write the wps to include all essential variables and each welder qualifies to these essential variables
for example if their welders qualified using a 70 series wire on a 2g horizontal test then they would not be qualified
to weld with a 90 series wire per table 4.5 as per note one increase in filler metal size
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 09-20-2011 16:45
I think what Henry is trying to tell you is:

1. The process may be run in 2G if the EOR approves it

2. The WPS may be written and qualified using the data from the original PQR as long as all the essential variables from D1.1 are met.  (Without looking, I do believe position is an EV, don't quote me on that.)
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-20-2011 17:08 Edited 09-20-2011 17:30

>for example if their welders qualified using a 70 series wire on a 2g horizontal test then they would not be qualified to weld with a 90 series wire per table 4.5 as per note one increase in filler metal size<


I think you're juggling apples & oranges here, Joe... or did you mean it to read as per note one increase in filler metal classification strength?

>They ran this WPQR in the 1G or flat position according to table 4.1 in AWS D1.1 this qualifies them to weld in the flat position once a Wps has been written.<


Correct, note 26 in Table 4.5

>The company wants to write a wps for 2g and weld in ther horizontal position<


They can write a wps for 2G and then qualify that procedure

>according to table 4.1 they are not qualified to make that weld Table 4.5 states that change of position is an essential variable and that a WPS must be requalified not a WPQR.<


Correct

>Since the company already has welders certified to the 2g position can they make this weld?<


Yes they can make those 2G welds as long as they have a PQR for that position

QCRobert
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-20-2011 17:47
ok so my original interpetation is correct . they must have  a WPQR for every position they intend to write a wps for.

So because they chose to run the WPQR in the 1G  flat position they are limited to writing a WPS for the flat position
and production welds can only be made in the flat position.

If they want to run horizontal they need to run a WPQR in the horizontal position then write a WPS based on those parameters.

im afraid some welding engineer is going to be real pissed off at himself  for running all his tests flat when all his welds are horizontal CJP

and are pretty much worthless for the task at hand
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-20-2011 17:58
I take it (assume) that you are examining the PQRecords;  reduced section tension pulls, root & face bends or side bends, AND RT results?

I've seen PQRs that did not meet spec in the past.....

QCRobert
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-20-2011 18:13
The WPQR they ran three for three different combo material
they did side bends tensile strength and UT. These Tests were run at
another shop under the direction of the General contractors welding engineer.

When he gets the bad news that they are worthless for the application necessary at the shop im
working at i have a strong feeling that the wpqr requirement for a horizontal weld will hastily be removed.

It took 3 weeks to get the results of the first WPQR. i guess someone should have looked more closely at
the drawings to determine welding position that would be utilized

thank you all for your help Joe
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-20-2011 18:48 Edited 09-20-2011 18:51
Good, there were UT NDE.

Can't tell you how many PQRs per AWS I have been presented that did not have the necessary RT or UT performed.  Most ocurred from contractors working to ASME only codes & standards, who were not aware of extra NDE reqs..

Even had one presented that had failed the RT and assumed I would accept it.:eek:

>Since the company already has welders certified to the 2g position can they make this weld?<


I still didn't understand your statement that the contractor had welders previously certified (qualified) in the 2G position?  If contractor has the necessary qualifed procedure, then yes.

Just work with them Joe, get a 2G procedure qualified, welders qualified and get on with the show.....

QCRobert
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-20-2011 19:11
they have welders qualified to 2G using 70 series wire and a different wpqr and wps and different material

The problem is that this Wpqr was for A707 grd 70 Hps  to A514Q material  the wpqr was run in the flat position
how do i work with them when the welds they need to make useing this new wpqr have to be run in the horizontal position
there is no way to roll this part and make the weld flat  it is part of a truss chord that is over 30 feet long. The company i am inspecting
at had no imput on what position the tests should be run in. the general contractors engineer told everyone he would personally take
care of the wpqr. how do i let them run horizontal even if they write a wps for it as the wpqr is for flat only. it took three weeks
to get the wpqr back that we can't use . the engineer says thaty the Genertal contractor is not going to run any more wpqr for the
company im at. so i guess the company im at is going to have to pay for a wpqr run in the horizontal position and wait for the results or beg the
engineer to make this go away since its his fault in the first place.  I just can't close my eyes and make the 1G a 2G
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-20-2011 21:36

>it took three weeks<


Damn, are you in Afgannyland with Superflux?  I have shipped plates to Acuren in Portland via Greyhound bus on a Monday morning, had them RT coupon that day, shipped back to me back Wed noon, cut & bent coupon straps, return trip to Portland by bus and had tensile results pdf files emailed by Friday and production welding 2,800 miles across the nation after the welders did a performance test.

>the engineer says that the Genertal contractor is not going to run any more wpqr for the company im at.<


Wow!:roll:

>or beg the engineer to make this go away since its his fault in the first place.<


Uuuuuhhhhh, that's really not possible, well put it this way, not acceptable unless EOR changes the AFC dwgs to reflect a deletion of all wording that states that all welding shall conform to the requirements of AWS D1.1.  If there is no wording to that effect, the EOR can approve any welding.  Just don't know what code or standard you would be inspecting to at that point.

>I just can't close my eyes and make the 1G a 2G<


Wouldn't expect you too.

Keep us informed....

QCRobert
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-20-2011 21:48
no im in the good ole USA it's probably going to take them a week just
to find A514Q test coupons . im baseing the three weeks on how long it took the
general contractor to get the results back on the wpqrs they just ran. i don't think
they realise yet that they have the same problem were building the south and the east truss
the general contractors shop is building the north and the west truss which are identical.
my gut feeling is the shop im at is going to weld it anyway , im going to write an NCR and the
powers higher up can resolve it. i thought that a structural engineer could waive any part of a code
they wanted to.  thank you for the help
Parent - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-20-2011 22:17

>i thought that a structural engineer could waive any part of a code they wanted to<


AWS D1.1
1.1 Scope
"This code contains the requirements for fabricating and erecting welded steel structures.  When this code is stipulated in contract documents, conformance with all provisions of the code shall be required, except for those provisions that the Engineer or contract documents specifically modifies or exempts."

Not just any engineer, but the Engineer Of Record, the person who performed the applicable load & stress calculations, material specifications, etc, in other words the PE Professional Engineer that signed & stamped the approved for construction drawings has the authority to modify or exempt portions of the Code.  The other person of such authority is the Building Commisioner.

When put in such a position as the Inspector (inspecting to a certain code or standard as per AFC dwg), where a variance is granted by the EOR I always query the reasoning and stipulate that the variance be signed off by the EOR.  Often times I have written the variance for him/her and submitted it to the EOR for his/her signature.  Many times that in itself changes the ball game so to speak.  Regardless, I generate an NCR and such signed letter becomes the disposition.

Anyone else who takes on this authority would be assuming a great deal of liability.  Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying that person would be a fool, and the company they work for.

Good luck to ya,
QCRobert
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-21-2011 05:30
Hi Joe,

Well now that you included all of this new information, the first thing that comes to mind is this... Why wasn't 2 or more pqr's qualified with both in the 3G and 4G position, or even a 6G pipe so that all positions & carbon steel groups would be qualified according to a range of thickness & possible diameters that would include any work they have or will probably be doing soon??? If this was done instead, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because the necessary WPS's would already be available.

This would have the welders qualified to the group of steels usually used for most of the jobs this company works with, and if 2 or more different groups were to be qualified to - then so be it!

Sounds like this EOR is not looking at the big picture IMHO.:razz::eek::roll::twisted::wink::cool: You know that you gotta do what you gotta do in order to CYA Joe because of such small thinking & short sightedness.:yell::lol::eek::roll::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-21-2011 10:53
I agree 100 % that the engineer and others higher up did not  look into this properly.
for some reason they thought that a wpqr run in  the flat position qualified the material
for a wps to be written in any position.  Thank you all for the information
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-23-2011 03:21
They probably read a copy of ASME Section IX while staying at a Holiday Inn Express!:confused:

Al
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-23-2011 12:01
Now that's priceless, Al!!!!:lol::lol::lol:
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-23-2011 14:50
let the begging commence
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 09-27-2011 17:41
Just a follow up . it's turned into a nightmare for the  steel contractor.
Project engineer has sent in an RFI to EOR asking for a waiver. nobodies
going to get paid till its resolved. I don't understand why they don't just run the
proper wpqr and be done with it.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / WPQR Qualification

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