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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / outside corner joints
- - By 70spoiler (*) Date 10-03-2011 02:49
I am having a problem finding any criteria regarding outside corner joints. We are joining at  roughly a 90 degree angle two sheets of 12560 armor.  The steel is .150" thick and is to be fit corner to corner with CJP. what is the allowable amount of convexity, I calculate the throat to be .105" . To be an acceptable weld this is the absolute min correct?
  If the welder consumes the base metal in the weld process is the a maximum amount that can consumed into the weld? Table 3.7 D 1.1 list a max size of single layer pass fillet weld with GMAW as .375 in the horizontal. I am correct in assuming the amount of base metal consumed can be included in this size? There is a backing plate behind the joint, and the process is GMAW-C  thanks for your input.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-03-2011 04:03
Refer to text 5.24 and Figure 5.4 to calculate your excess convexity.
As far as consuming parent metal, you would need 0.2121" across the face of the bead right?
That is going to put you well under the .375 Maximum.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-03-2011 18:42 Edited 10-08-2011 17:31
Outside corner joints can be specified to be built up beyond the typical fillet weld. In other words, the designer can have the outside fillet weld built up and then ground to form a 90 degree corner if that is what is needed for aesthetics or for other reasons. The maximum convexity is usually the limit for inside corner joints.

If you are welding armour, wouldn't you be welding per Ground Combat Vehicles 12479550? Don't they have specific requirements with regards to joint details and acceptance criteria that differ from D1.1?

This is similar to a post a couple of weeks ago regarding a CJP fillet weld. A fillet weld is required to have fusion to the root, but not beyond. In so many words, you would have to have the two plates intersecting such that the inside edges would just barely touch if there is any hope of having CJP. That configuration would be an invitation to problems with fit up and burn through. A silly mistake made by designers that have a difficult time distinguishing their buttocks from a gopher hole.

Perhaps a sketch of the joint configuration and the required joint penetration would be more appropriate than a double fillet weld symbol with “CJP” in the tail.  The sketch may not be to scale or it might not be exactly what you had in mind, but it never the less clearly depicts what the welding requirements are. There is no need to guess what the designer had in mind.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 10-11-2011 11:30
70spoiler,
Are you trying to define the weld requirement to put on a drawing, or trying to meet the requirements on an existing drawing?

Tyrone
Parent - - By 70spoiler (*) Date 01-23-2012 18:01
I had posted this question way back and now revisiting it for an update and to ask for more of your knowledge. Tyrone the first part was I was trying to apply to an existing print as are these next topics.
I have what i believe is the correct answer but the welding engineer has different ideas. Can you measure undercut on a corner joint? AWS defines undercut as a groove at the toe of the weld meted away and not replaced. any base metal whether it affects fit form or function is still undercut correct? here again these are question referring to 12479550 ground combat code, which is real close to D1.1 which is why i posted here. Secondly is the underrun rule( undersize filet welds) If the print states a 6 mm filet . the weld can be 15%  less  as long as it does not exceed 10% of the weld length? our weld engineer says that doesn't apply. He states the only applies for welds with no size. how can you undersize a weld with no size? Is there a possibility  i have lost my mind and any common sense. When its black and white and the print states to be built IAW with 12479550,how can i be wrong? what gives? this is partly a rant but i always consider the possibility i am wrong when someone with a weld engineer degree disagrees. I am a CWI with 18 years of steam fitting/pipe welding experence  behind me.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-23-2012 19:05
The applicable welding standard says what it says. If the standard says the weld can be 15% undersized, that's what the criteria is.

To be specific, the clause you cited is
(5) Underrun (Undersize)
Fillet welds shall be permitted to be undersize by 15% or 1/16", whichever is
less, provided the undersize condition does not exceed 10% of the weld length.

My understanding would be that the criteria applies to any fillet weld where the size is specified on the drawing or other working document. In your case, the 6 mm weld could be as small as 5.4 mm provided the undersized portion of the weld is not more than 10% of the continuous weld length. I don't think the intent is to apply the 10% length to the total weld length of an intermittent weld (all increment lengths added together). I would apply the criteria to each individual increment.

Undercut can easily be confused with what some welding standards refer to as edge melt, i.e., the edge of the plate is melted so there is no edge or lip at that point. In my humble opinion, the undercut is measured at the toe of the weld and the measurement is perpendicular to the surface of the base metal where it occurs. In you case if the undercut is at the toe of one of the intersecting members, but the depth is nearly parallel to the surface of the member, it really doesn't affect the integritty of the welded joint.

Hope that helps you.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 70spoiler (*) Date 01-23-2012 21:03
thanks Al. the first pic is exactly what i have. I already conceded defeat on this topic but wanted  a second opinion. but i stand tall on the under run rule then. thanks jack k
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-23-2012 21:47
I went back to your most recent post and found it interesting that your engineer said the size criteria was only applicable when the size of the weld was not specified. In accordance with your fabrication standard, all welds are to be specified using AWS welding symbols or a sketch and all weld sizes and lengths must be no less than specified.

5.9 Compliance with Design
The sizes and lengths of welds shall be no less than those specified by design requirements and detail drawings, except as permitted in Table 6.1.

I would understand that to mean every joint and weld has to be detailed, identified, and both the size and length provided. Unless the general notes includes a note to the effect that "all fillet welds shall be "XX", unless otherwise noted", I expect to see the information listed with the welding symbol.

Your engineer should be the individual ensuring all the information regarding weld locations, sizes, and lengths is on the approved drawings. If the information isn't provided, someone isn't doing his job. Whoever is responsible for those things is  collecting a paycheck under false pretenses!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 70spoiler (*) Date 01-23-2012 22:40
Al the welds i refer to do have symbols and footnotes in the tail. just say the joint must be filled corner to corner with no parent material showing because to joint does vary depending on the day of the week and the phase of the moon.( this is the corner to corner joint in the original post). jack k
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 01-24-2012 12:15
Hi Jack,
Sounds like Al answered your questions.  To sum it up....

The print calls out 3/16" fillet weld. 
1) Convexity shall not exceed 1/16
2) Undercut shall not exceed 1/32" (Assuming critical/ballistic weld).  Sounds like you have edge melt, which isn't undercut, so no problems there.
3) Underrun (Undersize) shall be 15% or 1/16", whichever is less.  The 15% in this case is less, so you are allowed to go as small as 10/32" weld for 10% of the weld length.

Hope this helps
Tyrone
Parent - - By 70spoiler (*) Date 01-25-2012 17:40
I really appreciate all the replies . I do however have one more question regarding edge melt.. I have searched 12479550 and D1 and can not find any reference to edge melt or anything close to it. I always like to have hard proof of a issue so when i am asked about it, i can show it in black and white to "cover my @$$" . does AWS address the issue anywhere? its bot even a listed definition. thanks once again. Jack K
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-25-2012 20:20
I believe it can be found in clause 2, but I don't have time right now to find it for you. I'm on the road right at the moment.

Al
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-25-2012 21:29

> I'm on the road right at the moment.


Hands and eyes on the road Al.... :eek:

<picturing Al with coffee in one hand, Blackberry in the other, driving with his knees>.....LOL nbl Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / outside corner joints

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