Does a WPS has to be signed by a CWI?

Date 10-11-2011 18:23

Manuelogo

First Welcome to the American Welding Society Online Forum.

Why do you want to know,LoL.

A few questions come to mind.

one is what Code

No a WPS does not have to be signed by a CWI.

But it does need approval by the companies liable representative.

Again Welcome to the Forum

If you would give more information you generally can get a more definitive answer.

Good Luck
Marshall

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-11-2011 18:29

Welcome Manuel !

As Marshall correctly said, The D1.1 code for structural does not requre a CWI to sign off a WPS.. However sometimes specific contract language for projects may require an inspector or company representative to have further credientialing or certification..

If you share with us the exact code and edition you are trying to comply with, somebody can direct you to the clause that you will find your answer in black and white.

But there are several D1.XXX codes out there and the more specific you are about your issue, the better help you will get for sure.

Welcome again.

By Manuelogo Date 10-12-2011 19:10

Thanks for your answers.

Now, we are using D1.1 and D1.5.

I'm working in a structural steel fabrication shop in Mexico and that question came to me a few days ago when an inspector said that a WPS has to be signed by a CWI but I've never seen that in the D1.1.

By TimGary (****)

Date 10-12-2011 19:47

According to the code, no. Any authorized company representative can write / sign a WPS.
However, contract documents often have that stipulation included by the customer.

Tim

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-12-2011 19:54

Manuelogo,

Welcome to the AWS Welding Forum!!

What you probably already know is that it says the Manufacturer/Contractor is responsible to prepare a written WPS and make sure they have properly completed WPS's on file for all applicable work (D1.1-2010 Clause 4.7). The Contractor's Inspector (in house QC) is responsible to make sure the WPS is correct for the job and is followed (D1.1-2010 Clause 6.3).

This comes up from time to time. Doing a 'Search' here will probably yield many results of similar discussions.

Who was the Inspector? A Gov't Inspector? The Customer's TPI? So many think the CWI stamp is a magic marker coverall that must be on all WPS's, Welder's Certs, Reports, etc. There are actually many operations that are completed by Non Certified personnel. Even In-house QC does not have to be an AWS/CWI. Though it is really to the Fabricators best interest to have a CWI in that position. But he can call out anyone he wants to be Quality Control. Then, it is up to the TPI for the customer to make sure the Contractor's QC is fulfilling their contract responsibilities and that all items are Code Compliant. (D1.1- 2010 Clause 6.1.4.1 Basis for Qualification)

Now, having said that, it is also a item to be checked in conformance to the Contract Documents and other job specifications. I have seen Engineers call out that ALL Welding Inspections WILL be completed by a currently certified CWI. But, that has nothing to do with the WPS's being stamped by a CWI. I have not seen that requirement in the Code or in a Contract.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By 803056

Date 10-13-2011 03:50 Edited 10-13-2011 03:53

I believe there are several state DOTs that require the WPS and supporting PQRs to be signed off by a current CWI or SCWI. That is a contractual requirement or it may even be incorporated into a state statue when the "steel construction manual" is adopted by the state. It may be applicable to structures fabricated to either D1.1 or D1.5 depending on the type of structure. If the requirement is incorporated into a state statue it becomes a legal requirement.

Best regards - Al

By Skaggydog (**)

Date 10-14-2011 03:46

OK, get ready to tell me I'm wrong.

I've written hundreds of WPSs and I sign them without being a CWI. All of them were checked by engineers and approved. AISC says they must be written in English. In Southern California most weldors can't read English.

By 803056

Date 10-14-2011 17:55 Edited 10-14-2011 19:30

Anyone can write a WPS or qualify a welder (with an exception for CAWIs). Whether it is done properly or correctly is another question altogether. The fact that an engineer signed off on it is of little comfort.

Al

By qcrobert (***)

Date 10-17-2011 19:28

Anyone can write a WPS or qualify a welder (with an exception for CAWIs).

Al,

I am not aware of this stipulation that CAWI cannot write or qualify a welder?

QCRobert

By 99205

Date 10-17-2011 20:06

D1.1:2010 pretty well spells it out in 6.1.4.3. The Assistant just needs capable and have a little monitoring by an Inspector.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-17-2011 20:16

Robert,

Al, or even Joe Kane, could probably do a much better job of answering this but:

It is not that they may not have the knowledge and/or ability to properly do so, it is because of the stipulations from QC1 and B5.1 from the Code of Ethics as well as the job responsibilities of the person who has attained a CAWI and not a CWI or SCWI. They are very limited what they can do during their 'apprenticeship' time of being supervised to attain the required additional training in order to qualify for re-exam to attain the CWI level. They must be within visual and audible distance to the CWI/SCWI and their duties are very restricted by their status, not because of their knowledge or ability. Anyone can witness a welder take an exam, except a CAWI due to it not being in his job specifications in B5.1 and if he did so he then violates the Code of Ethics. Now, he can watch, alongside a CWI and ask questions, observe, and learn. Even be a helping hand to the CWI. But can't do it himself. And can't sign off on it. Anyone can write a WPS (though the SCWI is the only one of the three who is required to have that ability as a Certified Inspector), a company rep, the welder, a CWI, a SCWI, BUT NOT THE CAWI. Not within his job description due to the restrictions of his learning/apprenticeship status and the Code of Ethics.

This has been well covered and even ARGUED before. There is much disagreement on the total scope of application. But the intent seems to be that the level of CAWI really limits what one is able to do. It has been stated you are better off to not have it and just retake the entire exam when ready because of the limitations incurred with it's acceptance.

I hope I have expressed this properly and helped you understand Al's statement. If I made any mistakes, I'm sure I will hear about it.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By qcrobert (***)

Date 10-17-2011 21:14

Appreciate the enlightenment, having never dealt with Associate level, now I understand.

Thanks,
QCRobert

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-17-2011 21:20

Hey Robert

AWS B5.1
Table 1
Procedure qualifications (4) (5) (6) (7)
http://www.aws.org/certification/docs/b5.1-2003-errata.pdf

AWS QC1 4.4
http://www.aws.org/certification/docs/qc1-07.pdf
4.4 The CAWI shall be able to perform inspections,
under the direct supervision of a SCWI or CWI within
visible and audible range, and as defined for the AWI as
in AWS B5.1, Specification for the Qualification of
Welding Inspectors. It is the SCWI or CWI, however,
who has responsibility for certifying that welded assemblies
conform to workmanship and acceptance criteria.
Emphasis mine

By js55

Date 10-17-2011 12:19

Manuelogo,
Next time you are confronted by such a situation have the "inspector" show you where it says such in the code. He is already aware of, or at least thinking along the lines of, your not being aware of, the requirement he is intending to impose.
If it does indeed exist in the code you will have learned something. If it doesn't exist in the code both of you will have learned something. And it also goes a long ways toward stroking the inspectors ego or exposing him as a fraud.

By 803056

Date 10-17-2011 23:52 Edited 10-18-2011 00:09

From QC1-2007:
4.3 The SCWI and CWI shall be able to certify the qualification
of welders to various codes and specifications.
The requirements of the AWS QC7 Certified Welder
program and the National Registry of AWS Certified
Welders are outside the scope of this standard.

Notice the absence of the CAWI from the list in clause 4.3.

From B5.1-2003
Performance Qualification AWI WI SWI
(1) witness welder performance qualification    X X
(2) verify welder qualification compliance    X X
(3) verify welder qualification records compliance X X
(4) request welder performance requalification    X X

Where the AWI is essentially the CAWI before certification is granted. Notice the Associate Welding Inspector is not expected to fulfill job functions 1 through 4.

I was engaged in conversation with an individual when the subject came up that anyone can qualify and certify a welder, other than the CAWI. How can one reconcile the fact that an individual with no experience or training can qualify and certify the welder, but the CAWI, a person with limited experience or an individual that didn't pass with a score high enough be certified as a CWI cannot qualify or certify the welder. The response was that the individual with no certification is assumed to have the necessary knowledge to qualify and certify welders when give that responsibility by the employer. However, the CAWI has demonstrated the fact that he has inadequate experience or insufficient knowledge to fulfill those job functions by the fact that he wasn't granted the CWI status.

It reverts to the old adage: Keep your mouth closed and people assume you are intelligent. Open your mouth and chance letting people know you are ignorant.

Best regards - Al