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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Etching Solution
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-04-2002 18:30
Where can someone find red foaming nitric acid for etching weld samples? We had some here when I took over this office but I've ran out.
It does a nice job showing every pass and the heat effected zone of each pass. I'm not sure what % it is, or if it was full strength.
Thanks in advance,
John Wright
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 12-04-2002 18:37
John:
I used to buy my acid from some guy with long hair, tie-die t-shirt, sandals and a beard (he also needed a shower).

Now I buy my acid from:
Chem Lab Supplies
1060-C Ortega Way
Placentia, CA 92870
(714) 630-7902
info@chemlab.com

Not sure if this would be too long of a drive from where your at.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-04-2002 18:45
Sounded like friends of mine, and yep, that would be a hike I would have to pass on. I'm in Lynchburg, Va. You know, on the shore of the other big pond. A guy here in the office told me he knew someone in a met lab in Richmond,Va., I mis-understood him and thought he said meth lab. I told him I did not want the DEA to come bust down the new front door I just installed.
Thanks, I'll give em a call
John Wright
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 12-04-2002 20:32
If you're in Lynchburg, call the guys in the welding department at Framatome and find out where they purchase their acid (for etching, not personal consumption). Ask for Dave Waskey.

Marty
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 12-05-2002 05:33
That's red fuming nitric (from the red no2 fumes it gives off). I seem to remember it being part of a high school chem experiment ( we made it I think). That's a long time ago though and I hear that chem classes these days don't make anything much more dangerous than custard. None the less local chem teachers may be able to put you onto a supplier.
Bill
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-05-2002 13:42
Fuming (concentrated) nitric acid (chemical formula HNO3) is a strong inorganic acid widely used for most applications, so it shoudn't be difficult to find it.
I suggest you to look into the yellow pages of your telephone book under "Chemical products suppliers" or something similar.
The red fumes Bill is talking about (chemical name "nitrogen dioxyde") come from the decomposing of the acid. That's why concentrated nitric acid doesn't last too long: as time passes it decomposes and loose its strength.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-05-2002 13:59
Thanks Marty, Bill, and Giovanni,
I'l have to call over there and talk to Dave @ Framatone, I've already called my old highschool and haven't heard back from the chem teacher yet(snow and ice has sent the schools home early) Boy, they never closed schools when I went to that highschool. But this day and time people will sue for anything, so I guess I feel for the school administration.
Thanks again guys,
John Wright
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 12-05-2002 18:20
Be sure to check the rules on any acid solution you procure. If it qualifies as HAZMAT under the EPA rules, you are obligated to show "cradle to grave" line of custody.

I only know this because we had to dispose of some solutions a couple of years back, and it turned out we had to hire a company to do it. The quanitities were very small (less than 1 qt), but it cost a few hundred dollars.

Charles Hall
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-05-2002 18:29
Just curious, but if I used it up(a little each time I etched a plate) how would I show where it has gone to, when they see an empty bottle, like I now have. I pour a little bit over the weld metal and wait, then I flood it with water when I think it has done it's job and can't recover it.
Need some help,
John Wright
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 12-05-2002 19:44
I looked into this last year when I was doing a project at home (not the same situation I described above). I was trying to restore the inside of a rusted gas tank (I managed to neglect my motorcycle and dispite the beautiful exterior, the inside of the tank rusted). Anyway, I used an over the counter acid solution that was very weak. Someone (on another forum I frequent) cautioned me about the disposal. I called the DEP (Dept of Environmental Protection) in my state (Maine).

To make a long story short, they told me that as a private citizen, there were no disposal rules. I diluted the substance and poured it out on the ground. They also said, if I was a "business", there were many rules to comply with, no matter what the quantity of the substance was. The lady said if a business has any to dispose of it has to be done through at authorized disposal location, no matter how little the quantity.

Using the solution as you intend will leave you with nothing to dispose of in the normal sense. If it was me, I would call the DEP and discuss the matter ahead of time. I would also make sure to keep a copy of the MSDS on file, and write up a short explaination of the use of material. If anyone ever questioned me, I could legitimately say I explored the proper handling and have established a program which results in minimal release of the product (providing the DEP didn't direct me otherwise).

The stuff I was talking about in my last post was being tracked by our safety department. They knew we had it in a locked cabinet. When they discovered how infrequently we used it, they suggested that we dispose of it. That's when I discovered the rules of disposal were more complicated than I thought they would be.

I hate to say it, but common sense use and handling doesn't seem like a good enough approach these days. Someone will find fault no matter how reasonable you try to be. Charles Hall
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-06-2002 12:03
I've had to deal with DEQ and the EPA, so I know alittle of what you're talking about. Environmental compliance is another hat I get to wear. I've dealt mostly with spills and storm water runoff testing as of late.
I will take your advice and make every effort to be in compliance, before purchasing any quanity of acid. Like you said, the words "reasonable", and "common sense" are not in "thier" dictionary. I don't believe we should polute the rivers and streams, but some of this has gotten completely out of hand.
John Wright
Parent - - By kam (**) Date 12-09-2002 10:21
Here is where I by all my chemicals from.

http://www.redbirdservice.com


kam
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-09-2002 13:12
Thanks kam
John Wright
Parent - - By HappyWelder (*) Date 12-11-2002 03:47
Warning!

Since you´ve handled concentrated nitric acid before this advice is mainly for those others who read this post.

Nitric acid reacts vioently with water or alcohol if it´s not not mixed with properly. Always use a fume cupboard. I've seen a guy get acid in his face and I have myself caused a "vulcano" of nitrous gases when I mixed alcohol and nitric acid wwith wrong properties. The fume cupboard saved a whole department from being forces to evacuate (don't prepare great amount of etching solution in a single batch).

Bottom line: Chemical may react in ways we don't expect them to do. Be careful.
Parent - - By kam (**) Date 12-11-2002 09:06
Good Advise!!!!

Dont try this at home. I would not recommend mixing the solutions yourself. The company who's site I posted sells premixed solutions. Would be best to stick with those if you are not familar with the basic principles of mixing acids & bases. Mix them them in the wrong order and BOOM. A 5% Nital solution (which is 5% Nitric acid/ 95% methonal) works great for etching most carbon steels. Not worth a crap on stainless.

Additional advice:
If you buy a large quanity of Nital and have the need to put it in a smaller container make sure you use an approved & labeled container. Storing it can be dangerous as well. You dont want to let the methanol evaporate, which it can, because solutions of 30% plus Nitric acid are volital.

kam





Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-11-2002 13:49
I'm not a chemist, but but have mixed nitric acid with demineralized distilled water. I had been warned about adding the water to the acid. Instead, I had been adding the acid to the water with PPE in place. I had a guy in our office tell me that when he was with another company that he did alot of testing and he mixed that solution the wrong way and had to be stripped of his clothes, head to toe washed down, from adding the water to the acid.
Caution is advised, Thanks guys!
John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Etching Solution

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