D1.3 Fillet weld Examination question

Date 11-12-2011 16:21

I am a welding instructor and CWI in Wisconsin. I deal almost exclusively with D1.1 and ASME section IX. I am helping a local company train welders to pass D1.3 qualifications on 2mm sheet steel using vertical down tee joints and vertical down flare bevel joints using GMAW ER70S-6 and SG-AC-13 (Strange gas I know, but that's what they use). They are doing a "boot camp" for prospective employees that includes two weeks of welding and print reading training. After we train them, the companies CWI's will qualify them. I am somewhat familiar with D1.3 as I have read it several times in the last month, but I don't use it much at all and i don't understand something. Here is my question:

The company's CWI is telling these guys that on the fillet weld break test, the weld can not fracture at all. He says that the base metal must fracture completely around the weld and if the weld breaks at any point the welder fails the qualification. I questioned him on this as D1.3 section 4.6.2.2 (c) reads:
"After visual inspection of acceptable welds, the two pieces shall be completely separated by either bending the sheets or hammering a wedge until either weld or sheet metal fails." (d) "The fractured surface shall show complete fusion at the root of the joint."

I interpret this as saying that if the weld breaks down the middle it is still acceptable as long as there is complete fusion at the root. I realize that a company can have a higher standard than the code, but they are saying that this is what the code means. Is this accurate?

Hopefully someone is more familiar with D1.3 than I am. Thanks for the help.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-12-2011 16:43 Edited 11-12-2011 16:46

Jeremiah!

Hey It's Larry from BTC. Sure was good to see you at MATC for the Section meeting last month.

I agree with your thoughts.

The fillet break test is looking for fusion at the root, period.

However, I would suspect that a 2mm (.078" or 14ga) fillet on a tee joint might just bend over itself most of the time, rather than break anyhow, so get some wedges :)

Is the SG-AC-13 the same as Argon 87/ Co2 13 ?

Good luck convincing them!!!!!!!

By ctacker (****)

Date 11-12-2011 16:43

I don't use D1.3 either, but I would agree with your interpretation.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-12-2011 18:19

While I don't use it a lot either, especially for testing welders to, I also agree with that interpretation. Though, as stated, a company can make it's own call. But don't do it and says the Codes says so if it doesn't.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By pipes

Date 11-12-2011 20:13

My thoughts EXACTLY! Do what ever you want but then don't say you've adopted D1.3. I had the same problem when I was testing welders to D1.1 for a company and the foreman said I couldn't test a certain welders weld because it failed visual inspection as a result of excessive spatter. He got really mad when I told him that was not in D1.1. I think it's fine if a company has different standards, but don't say you are following D1.1 code! Sorry, now I'm ranting.

By TimGary (****)

Date 11-13-2011 19:08

All code requirements define the minimum acceptance criteria.
Any company can choose to exceed these criteria due to person al or customer's requirements, and often do.

Tim

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-12-2011 19:14

Jeremiah,

I'm on this forum way more than I ought to be... and for the last 11 years..   Have recieved much help and made some friends.. I enjoy it.

I have never welded with that gas mixture before... But I would like to try it, just to see what it does.

I like 90/10 for spray but not really so much for short circuit... That extra 3% of active gas might make it a little more versatile.

Are you running those vert-down fillets in the short circuit or spray range?   Just curious.

We have a local player that runs similar thickness and joints on tanks etc. They run GMAWP with Miller Invision power supplies, predominatly vert-down. They have very good production rates and no leakers. I wasn't crazy about the process, but they make it work very well and made a believer out of me; and without much special fixturing at all. I think they run 90/10   They do D1.1 fillet breaks on 8 and 11 gauge plus a 3/8 vee groove, Horizontal and downhill for their testing. If you really work hard to stay at the leading edge of the puddle it works very well. The pulse is fast fast fast. They make a *bunch* of tanks!

By pipes

Date 11-12-2011 20:08

Hmmm....very interesting. I would really like to check that out. We do not deal in pulse at all. Nobody in our district is asking for it and our advisory board is silent on the issue yet it seems to me that that is the answer for sheet metal.

This company is running at 22 - 24 volts and 400 - 425 ipm wire. I'm not sure how much 87/13 is in a true spray at that point and I recommended 90/10 but they are worried they would have to re-qualify all of their WPS's. Also, they use 87/13 for their lasers so they use it to weld as well. These guys are having a really hard time qualifying with these parameters. With that much wire you really have to race to get under the leading edge you know? But that's production I guess. The biggest problem is that these guys have never welded before and they have two weeks to figure out how to not only pass the qualifications but then be floor ready to produce tanks....pretty tall order I think.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-12-2011 22:38 Edited 11-12-2011 22:40

Right.

I'm not a fan of the "boot camp" philosophy under most circumstances. It has been tried again and again in the state with unfavorable results.

Its a great idea to bring in a hired gun like yourself to get people ready to test; but to expect zero to code welder in that short a time is unreasonable for everybody but the most gifted learner. At best they get somebody that can do ONE thing proficiently. Sometimes thats enough in manufacturing, but not usually.

I've been pushing (with a little succsess) to get some of these manufacturing folks to try internships.. Hire the current class of students part time, while they are taking the process class in the program that matches what they are doing on the floor.. It gives them an opportunity to test drive the students for a reduced pay scale, and it gives the students a taste of the work environment before they graduate.. It takes some effort on Mgmt's part to schedule somebody to oversee the new folks and keep them on work that isn't over their heads. But the people that are doing it are VERY happy with the results. When that graduate they get a big pay bump and go right into benefits, and the employer knows they are hiring somebody they can depend on, who has multi-process skills, math, print reading etc.

I tell em to look at the student when they graduate after the internship and put them up against anybody that walks in to apply with 5 years experience but no tech college... Our students will dust them off every time.

By pipes

Date 11-19-2011 14:55

Whoa. I love that idea! I just put that on the agenda for ur next advisory committee meeting. Thanks!

By Tyrone

Date 11-23-2011 12:12

That's an interesting method Larry.
My assumption is that you are selecting them from a reputable Welder/Fitter program (40 week course).

My company's policy on new hires (Welders), recently changed from one month probation, to one year. During probation, they can be fired if they don't meet expectations. (I'm suprised the CAW union agreed). I was told that most people can behave for 1 month, but not 1 year.

Since we've had a heck of a time getting Welders, I'll suggest this as a possible long term solution. I definitely see the payoff.

Tyrone