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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Auto Darkening - Are you worried? Should I be?
- - By Tyrone (***) Date 12-20-2011 11:37
As I am getting older, my eyes just aren't as sharp as they use to be.  I was wondering if part of the reason was due to the auto darkening lenses. 

Isn't it physically impossible for the lense to switch faster than the speed of light?  The lense has to detect and switch before the arc striking your eyes.  I think that a small amount is actually reaching your retina every time you strike an arc.  It's just too small to notice, but over time is cumulative.

I've started to close my eyes the split second before striking an arc......just in case.

Paranoia?
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-20-2011 12:06
I understand what your saying. If we were hobby welders doing this on weekends or every other weekend working on our hot rod in my opinion we'd be alright. They do change in what, 1/25,000 of a second? You would not think that would be a problem but day in and day out I think that over time it will end up doing some sort of damage.

Is there a way to to get it to change faster? Not sure what hood manufacturers have up their sleeves. But the lens would have to anticipate your arc strike. The arc strike is the key to the switch. If your going to punch my arm, you say "go" initiating the punch(like touching the rod to the material) it will take me a few seconds to react to block the punch or move. Same thing with the hood. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, I believe if your a foot away from your arc strike they said it will take about 8 milliseconds for light to travel a foot. Don't know how fast these hoods are in milliseconds but they would have to change in 7 milliseconds or less, which would be faster than the speed of light. Our hoods need some sort of precognition so it can start changing before we strike the arc, just barely so we can see what were doing like now but before the light started to travel.
Parent - - By J Hall (***) Date 12-20-2011 12:22
A millisecond is 1/1000th of a second, so 1/25000th would be 1/4 millisecond, right?  I have wondered about the long term safety also, but never did the math until now. So maybe this plus the fact that I'm 49 years old anyhow I guess I'll not worry too much.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-20-2011 12:32
Not to sure, my memory on the speed of light over a foot might be off!! LOL! Is milli 1000, thought kilo was 1000, milli is 10,000?

Sorry, light travels at 1 foot per nanosecond which is 1 billion nanoseconds in 1 second. I believe the millisecond is 10,000 of a second, which means our lens change at 1/25,000 of a second which means it is some 199, 999, 975...nanoseconds to slow....if my thinking is correct!? Which means we are in fact getting a VERY short arc flash. Over time will it injure us? I'm sure our government must have done a study on this??
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 12-20-2011 13:51
I am NOT an expert on this but so what.
It is my understanding that the UV protection is built into the glass layers of the lens, not the darkening of the lens. So even if you forget to turn the lens on you are still protected. You just get your vision disturbed but not burned.

Having always worn glasses, I have never had my eyes burned in 30 plus years of welding. My eyeglasses have UV protection built in. I would be willing to bet that most of the time anyone has had their eyes burned, they were not wearing any kind of glasses or they were getting flash from the side (not covered by the glasses).

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are but at around 40 years old the eyes will probably need help up close. Then a decade or two later floaters make vision a little more challenging.
That's my experience.
If your hood is in good shape and not leaking, I would not worry about it. You might consider a visit to the eye doctor to make sure your eyes are healthy and see if you need any corrections.

Floyd
Parent - - By Nitesky (**) Date 12-20-2011 14:42
So in 25,000 arc sticks the cumulative effect would be only a single second of exposure?
Not to worry.
Death is approaching faster than eye damage from an AD hood unless you buy from Harbor Freight.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-20-2011 15:21
I guess that's a way to put it!! :lol:
Parent - By J Hall (***) Date 12-21-2011 01:23
I'm confused.:confused:
Parent - - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 12-20-2011 16:16
I just got a arc one shade 10 it works good and already spoiled but it looks like its out of focus or something there is a blur by the puddle and at the right angle it looks like im burning 3 rods at once but the main puddle is still clearly visible. Is my new lens junk?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-20-2011 17:11
Shawn it goes deci, centi, milli, nano, pico  etc.   A millisecond is 1000th of a second, it is a "kilo" just the other side of the decimal point.

PALADIN "I am NOT an expert on this but so what."   hahahahahaha:lol:  Me either.

Paladin is correct.  The lens still offers UV protection even if it does not switch or is turned off.  I am pretty sure all of them offer this protection.  I am due to deal with the devil of bifocals soon...that is such a dirty word to a welder.  If I have a really good year next year I might see if I can claim Lasic as a tool.:lol:

Shad  I don't know whats going on but if you got flat cover plates in the hood I have got the same thing if there is any space between the cover plate and the lens....causes a double vision effect.  Might check the fit of your gaskets etc.  I have been thinking on getting a wide vision with a curved outside plate like Optrel or some Arc One hoods because they are suppose to eliminate this effect.  I like the Arc One cause it uses standard size cover plates but the headgear is cheesy...have to fit better headgear to it.
Parent - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 12-22-2011 00:42
Tommy I have it my pancake. Talked to another guy and his does it too and its a different brand. So I don't know.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 12-21-2011 00:17
Your going BLIND ! Try a Cheater and a pair of Glasses. A visit to the Eye Doctor works wonders
Parent - - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 12-22-2011 00:46
Then why when I use a normal lens everything is clear as day. I have 20/20 vision at 43 years old. I have found if I use it outside its alot better
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 12-22-2011 01:54
Did you turn it on ?
Parent - - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 12-22-2011 02:43
Arc one one shade 10 solar powered
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 12-22-2011 12:39
Read the instructions, You need to leave it in the Sun for 12 hours before use. I know some don't do that. However, you're supposed to.
Parent - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 12-22-2011 19:21
Instructions said I could use it right out of the box. Today it seems to have some spots darker than others when welding guess im sending it back. And it seems real light for a shade 10 oh well guess ill go back to my old faithful shade 10 radnor regular lens
- - By Rig Hand (***) Date 12-20-2011 23:38
They say drinking has long term affects on your eye sight too.................Guess I'll just have ugly caps
Parent - - By Pickupman (***) Date 12-20-2011 23:58
Tommy I have been dealing with the curse of bifocals for about 5 years and yes they suck. I have the progressive and can't seem to get them at the right distance, especially when I am looking at an angle to the side, which is where most of us weld. I have been experimenting with cheaters at differant strengths and right now I'm at a 1.5X which really helps my side vision. Don't despair, you will get used to them. You won't like them but they're a fact of life for us soon to be old goats.:grin:
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-21-2011 01:46
WATCH IT!!  I resemble that remark.  Old goat still welds too.  I intend to try some cheaters.  I have been experimenting with some variations as I have problems just using the progressives when under the hood. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-23-2011 04:40
I had bifocals as a kid, then didn't have them for a while and have them again for the last 15 or more years.

I just got new glasses this fall, and had a good discussion about the lenses, including the "progressive' lenses.

He said that the "sweet spot" with the proper corection is smaller on the progressive lenses, and that since I had always had regular ones and understood how to use them, I may as well stay with them.
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 12-21-2011 02:49
carry several pairs of reading glasses different powers depending on distance your
eyes will be positioned from the weld . with me the closer my eyes the more power the lens.
try a combination glasses and cheaters. god im glad i quit welding lol
Parent - - By JLWelding (***) Date 12-21-2011 04:31
I have found that 1.25 cheater and 1.00 eye glasses work for me, that is this year, next month maybe a diff storie LOL
Its h--- to get old
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 12-21-2011 11:30
Nitesky,
I think you put it in better perspective for me.  Cumlative effect of 25000 arc strikes =  1 second of exposure time. I can live with that!

Paladin,
I've never worn glasses, so have not had UV protection before.  Come to think about it, I haven't had a bad case of arc flash (next morning, eyes glued shut, gritty feeling) since using auto darkening.

I think I will still shut my peeps a split second before striking an arc, and book a visit to the eye doctor.

Tyrone
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 12-21-2011 11:40
I always wondered if the AD hoods actually filtered out the harmful rays or just darkened the amount of light.

Think about high end sunglasses that actually block and filter the UV-a, and UV-b rays, this way it won't damage your eyesight.  Now think about the cheap sunglasses they sell for little kids; yes they darken the sunlight, but they don't block the harmful rays from entering your eyes.

I would like to think that they filter it out, but if in realitity does it really happen?
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 12-21-2011 14:34
If it is marked ANSI Z87.1, you should not have to worry, according to OSHA and AWS.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-23-2011 04:44
I don't know about plastic, but plain old glass transmits little UV light.

If You NEED to transmit UV wavelengths, You need to use quartz glass.
- - By browning06 Date 12-30-2011 02:54
What is everyone else's opinion on the best auto lense for a pancake
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-30-2011 13:11
browning

I always use a big glass hood for auto dark lenses...so could not tell you the best single for your pancake.  I use the old school auto lens in my stick hood, a flip up.:grin:  Not many major brands make regular size single auto darks anymore.  Arc one has the widest selection of them far as I know, there full size lenses are very light so I expect the singles to be the same.  In the ones I have owned I got rid of the cheap ones quickly as they shaded unevenly (like Shad was talking about) and it bugged me a lot.  I had to spend some bucks on the higher end models before I found some that were as consistent as a good glass lens.

http://www.arc1weldsafe.com/auto-darkening-filters.html

"I've never worn glasses, so have not had UV protection before."  Not picking on you Tyrone, not trying to be a smart alack either,  just wanted to clarify something.  Every time you use a welding lens you have UV protection.  The light you actually can see from a welding arc is not what burns your eyes, it is the high intensity invisible Ultra-Violet light that smokes them and causes real damage.  Intense bright light in the visible spectrum causes irritation and temporary overloading of the light receptors in your eyeball, it can cause damage but because you CAN see it people have a natural tendency to look away.  Otherwise strobe lights and such would have been outlawed back in the days of disco when all the John Travolta wannabes started walking into light poles and traffic.  A filter shade number is just to make it more comfortable to look at the arc, just like sunglasses make it more comfortable to see on a sunny day.  All welding lenses filter UV radiation that is actually what is protecting your eyes.  A shade 9 filters UV just as much as a shade 13, you just don't realize it because you cannot see the UV.
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 12-30-2011 18:20
Hey Tommy..  You said " A shade 9 filters UV just as much as a shade 13, you just don't realize it because you cannot see the UV. "

  Is that really true..?? 

I have never given it much thought but I always assumed a darker lens would be better for your eyes but after your statement Im wondering if too dark of a lens could cause more eye stress by trying to squint all day and find the puddle verses it just being there clear as day..

I am not completely convinced of your statement but it is an interesting thought and one I want to look into deeper... 

I guess if there was any chance of your eyes being burned the lens manufactures could in theory be sued big time..
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-30-2011 18:53
Hello RC, not totally sure whether there is a positive/negative UV issue with various shades, yet I do know that there is often a tendency to select too light of a shade by using the thought process of thinking that if you can't see as much of the peripheral weld area that you can't see the puddle properly. I often times suggest a darker shade to cut down on the glare associated with lighter shades, this allows for better puddle definition/clarity and thus generally provides for better puddle control. Most of the individuals that I have made this suggestion to find that they are able to "see" the puddle better.These are certainly my personal observations and not backed up by any hard scientific evidence. $.02 to throw in the pot. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 12-31-2011 00:42
Allan I have always leaned toward a darker shade.. I have used an 11 shade for ever and I was running some 3/32 LH on pipe the other day and my cap looked like I was drunk.. It wondered all over the place..

I grabbed a buddies hood who had a 9shade in it.. It was a touch lite but I could see my bevel clearer and my cape straightened up..

I went out and bought a 10shade arc one and I like it but I think its just a touch dark still.. I may go get a 9shade arc one and try it out..

I have no problem if I'm rolling out a fitting but when I'm coming up from the bottom in a tight spot and I'm watching my puddle on the back side of my rod on ether side I loose my bevel unless I open up my arc length..

Maybe I just cant weld a lick or my eyes are screwed up but ether way I got to do what I got to do to get the job done and get paid..!!:neutral:
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-31-2011 02:21
Follow what you're saying RC, I do know that I have lightened up the shades for a number of situations that I didn't feel the need to before (before I got old and my eyesight got compromised). Particularly when the amps are low, the arc is tight and obstructed, or I'm working with GTAW on some really small intricate low amp applications. Have had to resort to  cheaters for the past 12 years and the strengths are creeping up there as well. Have a great day and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 01-05-2012 21:01
It's funny.  Now that I'm thinking about it, I find that I vary my shade in GTAW about the same as I vary my tungsten diameter.
The current is dictating my choice in both.

Under 80A, I'm usually using a 1mm tungsten, and shade 9.
Up to around 120A, I'm using a 1.6mm tungsten, and shade 10.
Over that, 2.4mm, and shade 11 (my machine doesn't go past 200A, and shade 11 was just fine for that, the one time I needed that much power).
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 01-05-2012 21:47
Hello Robert, I can certainly follow that line of reasoning. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-30-2011 22:44
I am pretty sure that is correct RC. 

But I could be wrong, I have practiced being wrong during my life and I think I have it down by now.  I don't have an article or documents handy to refer to on my comment...I dug that out of the back of my brain bucket in a spider web infested place.  I think I read about it somewhere but I cannot remember.....Maybe I associate it from the fact that auto lenses provide full UV protection even when they are not turned on or are in a light state. 

I wish Henry was feeling better....I am sure he could post 10 different references on the subject in a couple of minutes flat.

Here is another interesting one on light.  Most infrared light will not pass through plain jane clear glass.
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 12-31-2011 00:28
I did not know that... I don't know much about infrared light.. Or more like I know nothing about infrared light...!! :lol: 

What I do know about is that around 10pm after you go to bed some sneaky devil sneaks into your room.. Peals back your eyelids and dumps about 50lbs of sand in your eyes...!!

  That, I have experienced... Thankfully I have only got flash burn one time and it wasn't that bad compared to some of the stories I have heard..!! 

Yes old Henry would have book written about it by now and I would spend half the night reading what he spits out in 10min.. :eek:
Parent - - By Northweldor (***) Date 12-31-2011 02:23
Be convinced. AWS and OSHA are.
Parent - - By browning06 Date 12-31-2011 22:51
Has anyone tried the journeyman EQC auto lens
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-01-2012 00:51
I am a Jackson fan but I do not like that lens...it lacks clarity.  The only Jackson lens I found that I thought was high quality was the Boss lens...it is expensive as heck.  The Next-Gens work well but the shading is uneven, at least in the models from 2005-2008.  The miller elite models are good lenses, do not know if the offer the same in a single. I do not own one but I have tried a full vision higher end Arc One for a couple of hours....it had very good clarity, response and shading.  + a three year warranty, I reckon I will be buying one myself and giving it a go.
Parent - - By browning06 Date 01-03-2012 19:41
tommy i have tried the millers and i am not impressed and i have also tried the radnor and didnt like it either
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-03-2012 20:55
Browning you might ask your LWS if they will let you try out the lens before you plunk money down on it.  Mine lets me try out stuff sometimes.  You might really like that journeyman EQC.   I think it is a shame they are not making too many single lenses anymore....lots of pancakes out there...plus the wide lenses mean more weight.
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 01-03-2012 23:31
Philips safety or american optical cool blue are the only two I like, I have tried a few of the auto darks and none were that clear and they were all in the 400 dollar range
Parent - By browning06 Date 01-04-2012 03:52
I have tried to get a cool blue but they are few and far between and the ones I have found have been outrageous
I would like to have one though the last one I found was $450
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Auto Darkening - Are you worried? Should I be?

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