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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Work safe related inquiry
- - By dalmat3 Date 01-24-2012 00:47 Edited 01-24-2012 00:52
Hi all
I'm a welder by trade. 6 months ago a youngun shoertened and welded 3" solid steel pin (solid rod) for a forklift
lifting carpet rolls -for local carpet wholesaler. -Moments after he collected the payment from them, the rod -fell off :eek:

Manager then dialed my number. I welded it so it will never brake off again- i have no doubts, positive :wink:
Work Safe inspected the work recently and wanted to know the max strength of this pin
Store owner called me saying that I am 'supposed to issue a letter specifying what is the max lifting capacity of this (shortened) and welded pin'
--forklift can lift 1600kg (~ 3000lbs)
-pin is 79" long, made of 3" O/D solid steel
-regular carpet rolls are 500lbs, rarely 750lbs and sometime do stick over the pin's end 5- 6'
Q:
-am i responsible to capacity-rate this tool?
-if i am, what is the formula to calculate yield or shear strength of the steel? (I know the pin will bend before my welds break, that is not an issue)
A link or formula with some specs would be greatly apprteciated. Thanks for your help

PS
picture shows the forklift and carpet lifting pin
Attachment: forkliftpinrepaire.jpg - Base plate doubled, x3 braces @ 120 deg and steel pin sleevedin 3-4" -then welded (0B)
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 01-24-2012 01:11
Does the pin go through the face plate or is it welded directly to the face plate?
Parent - By dalmat3 Date 01-24-2012 01:48 Edited 01-24-2012 02:02
That was the mistake of the young fella-he just Stick-welded it to the face of the (rear) base-plate
In fact, it's no wonder why it fell-off so embarrasingly...3" steel draws a lot of heat.
-There was no bevel whatsoever and weld was/applied 'cold'

-I've added an identical, 2nd steel plate and braced it with x3 flat bars positioned ~120 deg, location/load-matching original bracing
There is a pipe-sleeve, custom 'shrunk', to just fit tight around the pin. 
That steel pin was then hammered into the sleeve, all metal was welded before I welded around 3" circ. (to allow heat to work its way into the pin)
-It was welded using  MIG (GTAW) process, solid core wire Miller S-22 feeder, AR/Co2 mix
at 26+ Volts off Miller XMT 300 using single phase 240V/50 Amp input power -in spray mode (hot transfer)
It will not break, forklift will end up lifting, or pin will bend. Everything I repaired I welded 100% (all around)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-24-2012 01:35
Sticky situation.

Maybe you could ask them to provide you with the original specification for the tool you "repaired,"  so you can calculate what you have done against what was the original design specification.

Since they won't have this, you might be left alone...  But stuff rolls downhill so there is no warrenty to that thought.
Parent - - By dalmat3 Date 01-24-2012 01:50
Thanks guys. I understand. If we are to play by the rules, let the rules rule.
I'd still like to know yield strength of round, 3" O/D solid steel
As of base plate welds, half (front) of the structure is welded by yours truly, whilst other half by heaven knows who..
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-24-2012 04:29
Not to be a wise as$, but they COULD put the end of that pin under a heavy object or some fixed point and SEE WHAT HAPPENS when they try to lift it. If it can't take the full force of the machine, somebody at some point doing something it wasn't intended for will break or bend it.

Go to Anvilfire.com and find the MASS3 calculator. Enter Your dimensions and figure it out. If You can't figure out MASS3 [I never used it] ask the [webmaster] Guru, Jock Dempsy. He wrote MASS3.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-24-2012 04:39
I believe OSHA requires any lifting device to be tested and certified by a Professional Engineer.

I've been involved with several load tests. The "safety"factor is dependent on how the lifting device is used.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-24-2012 04:49
That sounds right, the chain slings at the frame plant all had a tag that could be looked up.

Having said that, We used shop built lifting lugs that were never actually tested, but the design was probably from Our engineering dept.
Parent - By dalmat3 Date 01-24-2012 05:54
I have no doubts this forklift will end up with its rear end off the ground or pin will bend..
if, as you say, lifting device is used to lift something else (a solid object?) -or something else may break, that I
have not ever welded or been responsible for
So I need to be aware of what my work was required to achieve and carefully
distance myself from failed attempt of young fellow or any other previous (or latter, if any) attempts
by someone else who tried to add/take away anything from this machine's attachment
Because of all this now, I'm reluctant to issue any written statements unless my lawyer agrees with it
"Safety factor is influenced by how device is used" -and that itself needs to be considered very carefully-I hear ya
--Thanks a lot, Al
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 01-24-2012 05:05
I think that is a good idea.  It seems to me that in order to be safe it should be stout enough to lift the rear of the forklift off the ground.

Particulary as a long load can cycle up and down ALOT when being rodded around on a forklift, increasing the load beyond what a static load would.
Parent - By dalmat3 Date 01-24-2012 06:11
I always overbuild/overkill so that in worse case scenario, my welds will endure/fail not
Job must be done in such a way that whomever stands next to it when complete-can not do anything more to improve it
This gives me peace of mind. Being aware all sorts of failures put there I can also design structure to fail where I want it to fail, 
in those situations where too strong is not best either..yes carpet roll can be large.
So forklift' rear end will lose traction, perhaps may go airborne and can become - dangerously- useless
With knife one can slice bread or kill someone. I can only guarantee my (part of) work
There's danger that someone else did work before/after. Liability should accordingly, be limited.
How do professionals gauge who did what? I took several photos and have a witness(es)
Thanks, Blaster
Parent - - By dalmat3 Date 01-24-2012 06:19
To DaveBpyer
I will contact Jock Dempsey as you instructed. Thanks very much
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-24-2012 15:12
In the event of an accident, the courts will be happy to sort out who is responsible for what.

With that in mind, if a piece of machinery is modified by a third party without the manufacturer's knowledge, the manufacturer is pretty well off the hook. The third party, even if they are following the owner's instruction, will assume a good portion of the liability.

I'm no lawyer and I make no claim to be one, however, I have been involved in several investigations on behalf of the plaintiffs seeking damages. There are a few things to consider:

1) An employee that is hurt cannot sue the employer if he is covered by workers compensation insurance unless the employer does something way off base.
2) Someone is going to pay for the injured employee that is out of work. If the worker is covered by workers comp, the insurance company may become the plaintiff.
3) The third party responsible for the work is the most likely entity that will become the defendant in any proceedings.
4) A defense of "I only did what the owner asked me to do." holds very little sway. Even if the part you fabricated didn't fail, your modification wasn't approved by the manufacturer and may have changed the stability of the machine, changed the lifting capacity, or changed the center of gravity. There are a number of things the lawyer, with his cadre of experts, will bring to the attention of the courts.

Any modification to equipment that lifts loads, especially over the heads of people working with them, is very dicey in the best of circumstances. Even if the machine doesn't result in a personal injury, an OSHA visit can result in very heavy fines if a Professional Engineer was not involved in the modification and there is no evidence of a load test.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By qcrobert (***) Date 01-25-2012 23:33
Al,

I'm glad you chimed in here.

I personally will not touch a fork lift, trailer hitch, ladder, etc. unless it's my own.

I plan on keeping my land, home, vehicles, etc..

QCRobert
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 01-30-2012 18:01
I'll double down on what Robert said.  I wouldn't put not one word in writing.  As a matter of fact, I'd be having the customer sign a written statement of non-liability in the event of an incident.  Now, off to the side, in keeping your customer happy, tell them to test lift the largest load they want to carry with the thing and make sure the machine will lift it and keep its CG inside the box.  With that dinky little lift, I doubt it would lift a full roll of carpet without seriously altering the center of gravity.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Work safe related inquiry

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