Obtaining certification records

Date 01-25-2012 03:57

Matthew,
The company paid so the company owns - end of story.
If you leave a company on good terms they will usually give you a copy of your certs (for reference purposes only) but if you left on bad terms they are not required to give you anything.
The only way to get around this is to ask them that if you reimburse the company the costs of your test will they provide certificates ?.
The CWI cannot legally issue you with a cert - the cert comes from the employer,
Regards,
Shane

By 99205

Date 01-25-2012 04:07

This is exactly why I have paid for all of my certifications.

By Matthew Nemchek (*)

Date 01-25-2012 04:33

Thanks for the reply.

No they were highly insulted when i put my two weeks in and things went down hill from there. It was like a bad break up with a girlfriend. I was afraid of that being the case. Never had an issue obtaining copies of certs even in a case of self termination. All the CWI's I had dealt with previously had no problem getting me copies. Just not sure why the CWI told me that despite who paid for them that they were still my certs? He put it in terms of they should be sure that I was going to stick around before they spent the money on it. :confused:

A CWI cannot legally issue me with a cert? Even if I can pass a test with flying colors I can't be certified as an individual? Learned something new today.

So I can't even have a local CWI test me out on a 3 and 4G test just to get them the paperwork? I was told if said CWI can vouch for my continued use of the process it didn't matter who paid for it, the cert was still valid.

Hmm can we get Al in here?

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 01-25-2012 04:56

Matthew,
If the CWI's requested copies of the certs from an employer then no problem - if you got them direct from the CWI without the employers knowledge then they better hope Joe Kane doesn't catch up with them.

You can qualify as an individual if you own a WPS.
Welders must be qualified in accordance with a qualified WPS so you cannot just walk in off the street, do a 3G & 4G test and walk out with certificates.
Not sure how the ATFs work (have a look at other recent postings) - maybe they allow individuals to qualify to the ATF provided procedures ?
Regards,
Shane

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 01-25-2012 15:13

Shane -- Matthew

I am not sure there is an ethics problem getting a copy of the test record directly from the CWI that witnessed and signed off the test. I have often (But Not Lately) been asked if I had a record of the test I gave to some welder years ago. If I could find my personal copy of the record, I would send it out. I never considered that to be any violation of the Code of Ethics. I always maintained a copy of the papers I issued and reports that I submitted. However six or seven years later it might not be easy to find them in the stacks and bins! If my client (Most often I am an employee even though I am a consultant, specifically prohibits the release of the qualification / certification documents to the employee (Welder) at the time, I would not release them to the employee. (Sometimes this was done to prevent the employee from getting the paper and going to work for another company.)

There was one Sheet Metal Workers Union employee who asked me for copies of the qualification papers that I had issued on a project a year earlier, and I declined just because the guy deliberately worked at a snails pace to sabotage the job schedule, and I didn't want to help him out. He was a "cancer" for production performance, and I didn't want any part of helping him kill another contractor.

One thing to be careful about here is the difference between "Certifications", and "Qualification Test Records". Another thing to remember is that many employers do not know what they can and cannot use for the qualification and certification of their welders. Many contract administrators and "Engineers of Record" will accept "Any Kind Of Paperwork, just so it shows the guy can weld OK"!

For the purposes of qualifying to sit for the CWE Exam, Tomorrow I will be at the AWS Certification Committee Meeting, and I will make inquiries as to what is acceptable. I don't know if Matthew can wait long enough for an answer. I certainly wont be able to get back to him before next Monday..

I Also say that an individual can self certify. He can take the prescribed qualification test in accordance with the document in question, and if he chooses, can use a CWI as a credible witness. These "Qualification Tests" may not legally meet the code requirements for operational use. (I.E. ASME) In New York, in structural fabrication, the employer has to qualify and certify the welders. If you are a rig owner/ operator, you have to certify / qualify yourself. I did this for many years, but kept all the paperwork including the invoices to the testing labs that I used to perform the radiography and the mechanical testing when required. For years I also kept the test coupons and the mechanical specimens in a box. (Only once in all those years did I have a third party CWI witness, and he didn't sign off anything that was given to me. He probably made a report to his client, but I never saw it.) The NYS DOT test was witnessed by the State Civil Engineer, but the Certification Card came from DOT Albany a month later. The Long Island Railroad had a witness for an Aluminum Welding Test I took, but they never even gave me results at all. They just told me I passed and told me to go to work. I took two or three tests over the years that I apparently failed, because I was not hired.

The problem with self certification and having a CWI witness and sign it off, is that although it might usually be legal, it is often not acceptable to the Employer / Contractor / Engineer / Regulator. Each case may be different.

In "my personal opinion", for the purposes of sitting for the CWE exam, I believe that properly witnessed and documented testing of any kind will be acceptable. However, I will ask around tomorrow.

Joe Kane

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 01-28-2012 05:37

Joe,
Very surprised you do not consider it unethical.
I spent 4 years working for SGS in New Zealand as a third party inspector and the majority of this time was spent witnessing welder quals.
Numerous times my friends asked for copies of their certs and my boss was quite strict - written authorisation from the employer (who paid for the tests) was required or no copy to be provided.

If a welder gets fired from a company for repeated poor workmanship do you think the former employer is going to be happy if a friendly CWI gives him an unauthorised copy of his certs.
The welder then gets a job at another engineering company (who may be a prospective client) using his old certs (with his former employers name emblazoned on top) to get a foot in the door.
After one week of substandard work from the welder the former employers reputation as a competent outfit has gone down the drain.
New employer - "Why would they give him a copy of his cert's if he is hopeless ? "
Prospective client - "If this is an example of their quality of welders I don't think we will subcontract any work to them !"

Regards,
Shane

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 01-29-2012 22:30 Edited 01-29-2012 22:44

Shane

I cannot completely disagree with the reasoning you use in your posts. However I think you are mixing apples and oranges to a certain extent. The Code of Ethics has several articles in it, and the situation, as originally stated, does not fall under prohibited activity. Now, if you were hired to do some certifications and keep them secret, It m i g h t be s o m e w ha t possible to infer a violation under some COE article or on the basis that the CWI engages in an unlawful activity.

As for one company being irritated at an employee for substandard welding or any labor related issue, and having another employer hire that employee and too late discover that the employee was all around "bad news",... it happens all the time, ...with or without any CWI Involvement! There is still no violation of any article of the Code of Ethics!

I question why the hiring company did not perform some "Due Diligence" of it's own, and at least give the incoming welder their own welding test.

I am sorry, but I am unable make the connection between the point you want me see, and any specific article of the COE. Maybe my past experience and mind set prevents me from making a valid connection! Sorry!!!

When I work for a some State DOTs, for instance, I am prohibited from releasing my daily narrative reports and other required reports to the fabricator. The Contractor has to file under the Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) if he wants a copy. To me this seems totally unreasonable for the most part, because I usually orally tell the contractor what is wrong before I write it up. Furthermore, I leave a copy of all my reports and correspondence in the contractor supplied "office" (Shop File), and there is almost nothing I can do to stop the contractor from going into that office when I am not there and copying the file!! That office is required to be lockable, They are required to supply me with it (and furnish it with equipment) but it is still HIS property, and he has a key! (Legally he may be trespassing by copying the files or even by looking at them.) At the same time however, I have never been told that I could not give a copy of the qualification test or the State DOT paperwork to the welder.

Joe Kane

By aevald

Date 01-25-2012 05:04

Hello Matthew, slight variance to the statement about personal certifications. Right, wrong, or indifferent, in Washington state they have a certifying agency called WABO, the certs that are issued by them are their property, however, the individual who took the test carries a card to indicate that he/she is certified with whichever particular process is included on their card, this could be a single cert or multiple certs covering different structural applications. An employer who hires them will generally give them an in-house test to verify skill/proficiency and upon verification the company will use the number on the person's card to include in any correspondence required to verify compliance with the particular structural code that WABO might claim jurisdiction over. I believe the "CommonArc" system that is used in some places is somewhat similar. My understanding of this is that a number of representatives from major employers witness the certification process for a particular individual and providing that the results of this process are successful and meet their qualifications the individual will be allowed to perform work for any company represented by this group on any of their jobs that match the qualification process. A couple of $.02 worth for what it's worth. Best regards, Allan

By qcrobert (***)

Date 01-25-2012 16:44

aevald,

Yes I have had welders wishing to obtain actual WPQs from WABO to no avail. However, I know of other welders that were employed & tested by private companies that were able to obtain their WPQs by referencing the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA).

The DPA provides a right of access to personal information about yourself held by public authorities and private bodies, regardless of the form in which it is held.

From October 21 2001 you are able to see information about you in all structured files held by any organisation, including government departments, local authorities, the police, employers and private companies. The right applies regardless of when the files or filing system was created.

I have kept (computer) copies of WPQs dating back to 1987 on all welders that I witnessed their tests. I have always given the welders, upon request, their individual WPQs.

QCRobert

By aevald

Date 01-25-2012 20:18

Hello Robert, that is interesting information, thanks for listing that here. I have been a WABO examiner for the past 18 yrs. or so. During that time there have been various "restrictions" put on information regarding certifications and the associated paperwork. I believe that the WABO standards call out for compliance with code only by accepting that a welder on the jobsite is considered "certified" if he/she has card in hand. Otherwise the inspector could halt their ability to continue to weld until they are credentialed as such. I know that some inspectors will accept verbal verification providing that the examiner has been contacted directly and a conversation has taken place to verify an individuals success for a particular cert. and the only reason that the individual doesn't have card in hand is due to recent testing and waiting for the papertrail to catch up. Many years ago I was in the habit of providing a letter to indicate that a particular individual had indeed taken and passed the certification tests and was awaiting their "official" card. I believe other examiners at that time were doing a similar sort of thing. Shortly afterwards, all examiners were issued warnings stating that if we were continuing to do this practice and it was determined to be occuring that we would be relieved of our examiner status. So I stopped and explained to anyone who didn't understand as to why I needed to handle it in such a manner.
WABO does NOT allow certification candidates/completers to have copies of their test reports. That was a new one for me when I initially started to administer this process. I, like many others, was used to receiving a copy of the test report and in some cases a card too. When I inquired about this system at the time I was informed that that was the way it was going to be done, so essentially go with and get used to it. Later there was some correspondence that further supported their stance due to fraudulent testing that was occuring in some places. Apparently, for a while, there was a practice that was occuring where a "good" welder would go to a particular testing agency and test under someone else's name thus providing them with a fraudulent cert. This same individual might do this for a number of different individuals. To address this practice, positive identification became part of the testing process, requiring photo ID. in the form of a driver's license or state identification card. The next thing that began to happen were cards that had been printed to look exactly like the WABO state issued cards. Watermarks came into play on the state issued cards. I believe the people who had forged their cards found a way around those too. Currently, the cards in use are similar to a credit card and have some other types of security methods included in them. Where I am located I do not believe that I ever had anyone try to bilk the system. I guess for others though, some of this was a real and relevant problem.
Can't say how WABO would respond if someone tried to reference the Data Protection Act 1998 that you have mentioned in your post. Might be interesting to see the results. Best regards, Allan

By Blaster (***)

Date 01-26-2012 01:58

Good info about WABO Allan. I am sure the idea behind them keeping the test record is to prevent a welder from using it with a fraudulent continuity record to obtain work. Annual renewals are made through WABO for continuity updating. New cards are then issued to welders who keep their proof of continuity current... therefore no current card in the welder's possesion, no current "certification"... little room for fraud. I think WABO has established a great model for mobile welder qualification, that is held by the welder and that is hard to cheat on by either the welder or the testing station.

By aevald

Date 01-26-2012 15:14

Hey Blaster, thanks for chiming in. Overall, I believe it is a decent system too, although I additionally believe that it could use a tweek here and there. A work in progress, nonetheless, thanks for your additional information. Best regards, Allan

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 01-26-2012 21:48

I Looked up the Data Protection Act of 1998 on the internet, and it turns out to be a UK Law.

By qcrobert (***)

Date 01-26-2012 22:19 Edited 01-26-2012 23:15

Wow, then I do stand corrected!

Here all along I was under the impression it was USA Act and never looked it up.

Been a good bluff for years....QCRobert

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-25-2012 05:07

Matthew

This cert request you are discussing is in order to validate qualification for sitting for CWE exam?

I really diddn't think they were that tight about what they would accept.

I had a stack of em when I sat for the exam and sent in something very old and out of date... I think it was either a DOD/Navy issue wallet card or an even older SMAW performance qualification test report... Neither were endorsed by a CWI.

Maybe a phone call to Florida asking exactly what will satisfy the requirement to sit for the test will clear up your issue without spending money to do a weld test that isn't for production.

By fiona Date 01-29-2012 18:41

,
Richards Bay, kZN RSA.

Hi Mathew you don't need your previous employer handouts, you are a tested qualified process welder your next employer will test your capabilities and see if you can perform to the ASME standard of practice, of which you are good at, I have been doing process tests for the last 40 years for the Petroleum industry, Escom/Koeberg power staions, Dairy, Beverage and the Mining Industry and still going strong.
Always look forward in doing your next process test, I recieve a lot of those progression copies from employers I throw them in the thrash; because I know my next employment will be another challenge and a new procedure.
Therefore you shouldn't fret, you are a proud process welder and a performer to the highest standard; if an employer need your service he must also be prepared to pay for your welder process tests what he does with it is his problem, by law he is obliged to give you a service certificate.
If you have to pay for your own tests he must also be prepared to pay for your markup percentage.
These guys don't realise we render the most dangerous service to the industry, it is their resposibility to pay a welder a decent hourly rate for inhaling dangerous toxin evey second of the day, and provide health and safety with proper respiratory equipment.
"Be Proud, Welding Is An Art", Take it from us South Africans we mastered the art, and is in demand throughout the world.
Eddie.

By qcrobert (***)

Date 01-25-2012 20:42

Matthew,

Your certs are a part of your personnel file retained by the company you worked for. As such, you must ask the company what their policy is for you obtaining copies of your personnel file. It may be verbal or (usually) by written request. Inform them that law (Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA) states you have the right to this information. If no results, contact a lawyer, he'll charge you a modest fee (usually less than $45) for his assistant to send the same request letter to that company however it will be on his/her stationary thus greater impact. I have recommended this procedure many times and it has always proved out, sometimes even without the lawyer's letter.

Hope this helps,
QCRobert

By Matthew Nemchek (*)

Date 01-25-2012 23:32

Thanks for the input guys! I will give the request a try, it sounds like a very good idea. Thank you very much guys.

I will have to do some research, and get back to you about how things work in this state. I know that during all the cert tests I had to take, I was never handed a WPS. I was handed the steel test plates and verbally instructed on how to set them up, what positions to weld them in, and what the final pass is expected to be profile wise. All the paper work I saw the CWI filling out, or looking at was just the basic info sheets regarding the position, process, ect. I was issued cards stating the pertinent info regarding the tests. My employer grabbed those and only handed me the credential card. Now that I am thinking about it that may have been to prevent my passing and leaving. Although that was never the plan. The tests were never announced until I showed up for work that day. There really no way for me to plan to get the cert and leave. I put 4 years in, and was treated like a dog the whole time by my direct boss. Everyone else liked me. The president and all the shop supervisors, and customers. My direct boss hated my guts and did everything in his power to let me know it.

To kind of summarize it I was like a rig welder. I had the truck with portable welder and all the equipment, but I was for hire and operated out of their fab shop. Was certified for structural steel plate but welded everything from aluminum to stainless and even pipe jobs for boilers, water mains, and gas lines. All on a plate cert. We would even thaw frozen water lines with our welders in the winter time.

In this state you can test to be a weld test conductor, but I do not know what that allows a CWI to do outside of a company they may work for. I know for about 35 dollars he can forward copies of the test results and get you listed on the states registered welder list. I will have to find out more.

Thanks again guys.

By qcrobert (***)

Date 01-25-2012 23:37

Yeah I don't know how you will fare but it's worth investigating. Just Google up Data Protection Act of 1998, it's Federal law.

Let us know,
QCRobert

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 01-27-2012 03:13

Matthew Nemchek

I tried to find out what would be needed to sit for the CWE Exam today at the Certification Committee Meeting. When I raised the issue in Committee, I sort of got a "Deer in the Headlights" stare. The staff secretary Linda Henderson told me to have you contact her and she would try to give you answers. Call the AWS Headquarters and ask for her by name.

Joe Kane

By Matthew Nemchek (*)

Date 01-27-2012 03:44

Thank you very much Joe! I will give them a call. I know the state standard here is D1.1 and I have my state registration ID as well as my expiration date for my SMAW and FCAW certs.

Thanks again for the help and advice everyone!

By Matthew Nemchek (*)

Date 01-29-2012 00:23

Looks like I hit a nerve. Al I have read your posts and you come across as very knowledgeable. With such a sharp mind I am highly disappointed to see you ranting like you are. I apologize if my posts come across as whining to you, but most just state the facts not the whine. I could have very easily started attacking you for your views, but I respected your right to your own opinion. I know you're a die hard union supporter to the extent that 1 of my brothers is, but if stating the facts about the corruption and greed that are clearly going on gets you that angry then you will go to your pine box with your eyes tightly closed and that's your own choice. My father used to be a union man, and you come across as being old enough to be of an age where you got to experience the golden time of unions. It will always be stuck in your head and you will remember it no other way. But you seem to forget, that was a different age and a far different economy. I wish he could tell you how great the union benefits were when the company he worked for shut its doors and all the workers lost their pensions. His isn't the only story like that either.

Whether you wish to see it or not unions are like the steam locomotive and the Oregon trail. They had their time and place in history and their usefulness ended a long time ago. I took the job at this shop because it was work that paid. As well as one of the only companies hiring welders when I needed a better paying job because a union job paying $15/hr isn't going to support a family of 4. Plus they were willing to match the offer of my previous employer who was willing to pay for me to go through the courses and take the CWI tests. Something I am doing so I can do better providing for my family as these people are in high demand and have better pay rates. If you actually met me you would know that I have not or ever made any claim to being a welding god. But then again you would have to also ask that question of my former employers. Why on earth would I always get stuck teaching some helmet wearing retard how to weld like me, if they didn't think so. This has occurred at every shop I have worked for. Why am I always the one they come to and say "Can you cut this thing apart and fix it so we don't have to scrap it?" when there are from 5 to in some shops 50 other welders to choose from? I never volunteered for this, but when offered to get CWI/CWE training I did recognize the opportunity when it was presented.

As for the union shops. There were real hard times in this state where you couldn't have bought a job at a welding shop, so out of necessity I took a job where it was available to leave a bad situation. But you keep reping those unions proud because even you are clearly unaware of how these establishments are shooting themselves in the foot. That's how a job paying a steel worker for HD $40/hr to polish a fuel tank went to a shop that was union in title only and only paid it employees a max of $15/hr. It was written in the contract to hire people for this union shop and pay them as little as possible. Every union rep was bought off and went out of their way to ignore any wage negotiations in favor of protecting their financial atrocities called pensions. Now since you're obviously a card carrying member of Mensa's triple 9 society, please explain how the whole pension thing came up and was even considered without there being a whole lot of greed, and corruption, and looking the other way involved? Funny you bring social security into this because your talking to a guy who has paid into that same failing institution for 18 years and it will not even exist by the time I need it. YOUR WELCOME FOR THAT! Hell take a buddy out to lunch and tell him this one is on Matthew Nemchek. After all YOUR ENTITLED to it, obviously not me. Hey look your greed is showing! And a union lackey to boot! Imagine that! What are the chances? I mean its got to be 1 in a billion.

As far as unions benefits lets see here... I got the same insurance, 401k, vision, and dental, as what I have in the union shop I work for now, with a lower wage than what I was making in the non union shops. The previous union shop had even lower wages with the same exact benefits. Wow I pay a union to get the same benefits as the non union shops OMG what would we ever do without unions? So lets recap. I get the same insurance as I did in non union shops and actually get less pay. I am dealing with it out of need, not want or trying to take advantage of anything while complaining about it. I would leave but I am locked into a year long contract as a result of trying to improve my circumstances. Since Gov. Walker was elected the jobs and work have returned to this state it is possible to leave my employer, but to do so I would have to drop a good opportunity to do so and go back to living paycheck to paycheck. You obviously have no clue what its like to walk a mile in my shoes SON. Why don't you try to support a family of 4 off of 1 income and no extra help from any other type of source. Tell me how that works while the value of the dollar is dropping and inflation is rising. Have you paid attention to your grocery bill or energy bills as of late? My wife is disabled and unable to work period. Due to how things panned out with the multitude of quacks trying to diagnose her, she isn't even eligible for social security or disability. Even though you own your own business and despite your crying about your bills we all know you're making damn good money otherwise you wouldn't be doing it. If you're not then that is your fault and deserve what you get. Maybe you should unionize I hear the benefits can't be beat!

Just to be clear I am a poor white boy trying to support his family by working hard everyday and despite how bleak my future has looked at times I still put my steel toes on and go to work. I do my best working 1,2 and even 3 jobs at times to make my ends meet. My father died when I was 18 and with him went any hope of going the college route, even tho I had full scholarships being offered to me. I didn't go because I did what I thought was the best thing and dropped out of high school to help support my mother. This is how I came to the wonderful world of welding. I will omit any further hardships that I endured because I am obviously whining about how everyone should be feeling sorry for me and somewhere I obviously posted that I wanted sympathy and a free ride. No I can't afford to pay for it out of pocket. The equipment I bought was done with little cash and taking advantage of others who had hard luck and had to do what they need to make ends meet. That's how I ended up getting a brand new Miller Trailblazer 302 for a freaking steal. You wouldn't believe what I was able to pick up a machine with 4 hours on it for. It retails for around $7000.

So AL/803056 why don't you man up? I will pm you my address and you can drive up here and certify me yourself since you are obviously the only competent CWI in the WORLD! I will even give you a can of spay paint so you can spray the word "SCAB" all over the side of the house I rent and car. While you're at it you can also stay for dinner to take the food out of my childrens' mouths. And to help you have a more positive mental attitude I will give you this advice...When you wake up in the morning you're supposed to piss in your toilet not your cheerios.

I WOULD LIKE EVERYONE TO LEARN A LESSON FROM OUR BUDDY AL/803056

Since you are obviously not familiar with understanding how forums work, and how to conduct one's self, I will explain. I would use crayon for you, but this forum doesn't offer a crayola font. Forums are posts with words and not a whole lot of connotation as to how things are being stated. Just 1 person typing a single sentence can be construed multiple ways depending on the actual mind set and perception of the person reading it. Even with the advent of the "smiley" it is still not possible to get the entire intended connotation of how a poster is trying to convey their message. Instead it gets interpreted however the person reading it CHOOSES rather than intended. It always ends up with some one getting their butt hurt by something they totally either don't understand, or never bothered to consider. Then you get the 803056 syndrome where someone rather than understanding experiences and opinions of others as just that, THEIR EXPERIENCES AND OPINIONS. Now you have good old 803056/Al fighting the good fight, and going to take out the trash, and look the fool the whole time you're doing it. I know he loves his pure socialism unions and will defend them to his dying breath. I would like to take this moment and thank Al/803056 for doing his socialist organization proud by trampling my right and liberty of freedom of speech and my ability to express my opinions. I would think it would be more appropriate if you got angry if I have never had any experience with any type of union, good or bad. Showing up at a job site just to be insulted, harassed, and interfered with by union lackeys who would go out of their way to do so while all I am doing is trying to feed my family. Thank you AL/803056 for keeping the union spirit alive and well and showing all here just how well you can conduct yourself like a true professional!

Flame on Al. (you can take that one however you choose. :twisted:

)