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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need advice on putting in a down hill 6010 root
- - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 02-03-2012 23:05
On my root I thought I was doing OK !!!!!:surprised:  Wrong , inspector on job, wants root to look like a small contiuous rope inside pipe. (Welding to 1104 API )  In 30 yrs. never have I seen this done need some input from the guru's !!!!!!   :confused:
Parent - - By cwf07 (***) Date 02-04-2012 01:22
Make sure you keep your gap and landing constant. If your key hole gets to big turn your heat down if you don't have a key hole turn heat up and keep a even speed going down the pipe.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 02-04-2012 13:45 Edited 02-04-2012 13:58
cwf07 is right.
The trick to getting the "Wedding Band Root" shape that the Inspector is looking for is to push the rod all the way in to the bottom of the joint so that the arc will burn on the inside of the pipe through a "key hole". When the arc is just right, you can't see it much for for flux, but you can hear it sizzling. Don't try to whip the rod, just shove it in there and let it burn, keeping pressure on it. Make sure you grind your tacks, starts and stops. Feather in the edges for smooth root transition. Machine settings and a good ground close to the joint are key issues. Then it's just up to near perfect travel speed and rod angle... I usually have a hard time with it cause I'm old, shaky and out of practice. Guys who do it all the time, after a while, can do it with their eyes closed.

The reason behind this is that while the completed pipe line is put in service, the welded joints will be affected by stress from internal pressure and flexing stress from expansion and shock-hammer. Also cavitation of the internal pipe wall will result from unevenly shaped root passes. The turbulence in the liquid's flow, when it hits an obstruction like a poor root pass, will eat out the pipe from the inside, fairly quickly.
So, the more hazardous the leak potential is, due to pressure or flammability, caustic, steam, etc., the more stringent the code requirements are governing weld discontinuities. You should have a WPS that explains the minimum acceptability requirements and allowable joint shaping and welding parameters to use.

Tim Gary
Attachment: GroundKeyHole.jpg (871k)
Attachment: WeddingBandRoot.jpg (20k)
Attachment: PerfectButterflycap.jpg (6k)
Parent - - By Hoo (*) Date 02-06-2012 22:59
Nothing much to add here that hasn't already been mentioned. I just had a laugh when I saw my picture of an old practice piece I ran out appearing in the second reply (PerfectButterflycap)  Funny how things move around.  Carry on. :lol:
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 02-07-2012 11:46
Good job Hoo.
Google image search is great!

Tim
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 02-04-2012 15:54
Don't be afraid to crank up your heat. Rember the laws of gravity. Tim Gary has it right, stuff that rod in there, but just remember to have your heat high enough that it doesnt put your arc out when you stuff it. If you're running 1/8 on the root, you should at least be at 100 amps, depending on your machine, The gap should be about 3/32, and your landing about the same. Take the time to make sure these two things are perfect. When you are on top, you're gonna penetrate faster, because of gravity, and when you're on the bottom, you're going to have a tendency to put out your arc, because your arc is falling back on itself. The only way I can tell you to do it, is hot and fast, pard. On your stops and starts, you want to take the meaty starting point and grind it down for a good, smooth stopping point where you are going to tie in to it. Your tie ins are the main thing besides consistancy that an inspector is looking for. Also, your hot pass is importand too. All the time you put into prep is going to pay off. You dont want to burn through your root. That's called a burn through, and it is difficult to repair up to code. Prep, prep, prep.

Also, practice getting your arms and body to rlax and work together, Sometimes when you're putting in an important weld, you spend more time trying to get in your comfort zone, to be any good to yourself. Relax and let your whole body work together while you are running from 12 o clock, all the way to the bottom and beyond. Make your starting and stopping points at different places, so you are not always starting at 12 o clock, etc...this is also a busted test, because those stops and starts on top of each other is where your pressure will find all the little inclusions that comes from starting thataway.

Good luck, find your heat, your landing and gap, your speed, and most of all, your zone.....:lol:
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-04-2012 23:43
A good hot pass will push it in further.... Now on that note...

  You can run a hot pass too hot and not know it..!!

  I ran a 8in practice pipe test the other day with 5p bead and 8010 out... My bead looked perfect so I ground down the wagon tracks a bit then cranked up the machine and went in with my hot pass..

When I got done I was pretty proud of how hot I ran the hot pass in and how smooth it went in..  Then I looked on the inside..  I never burnt through but I was so stinking hot on the bottom that my bead actually went from being pushed in about 1/8 when it went in to being sucked back about 1/16th...

  So I ran another practice test and turned down the heat and it pushed my bead in just a bit and looked pretty..!! 

  I have gotten to where I run my remote and my stinger at the same time while always adjusting my heat as the bead is going in if the fit up is bad..

I am using a sugar scoop hood with a shade 10 arc one auto lens.. When I get my heat and gap just perfect my lens will actually kick off because all the fire is on the inside and I can just watch a little red puddle going down the pipe... When I do that and it works right my bead will stack up inside perfect all the way around.. 

  It takes a bit to get used to because when yours lens kicks off you think your arc has blown out but just keep listening to the arc noise on the inside and watch the puddle go in..!! :smile:
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 02-05-2012 00:13
RC,    Never got to hot pass, inspector stated before starting he wanted to look at root after done and warned me that I better not run hot enough to affect my root !!!! ( blow thru)  I know exactly  what your talking about w/the puddle going inside the pipe kicking off the autolens,thought that was a bad thing and was pulling the rod out gonna have to try that !!!!!!!  Keep the advice coming need all I can get!!!!! THANKS EVERYBODY !!!!!!!:smile
Parent - By weldwade (***) Date 02-05-2012 00:52
When your auto was kicking on off you were where you needed to be. I don't like auto lenses for beading pipe because they flicker on and off and that annoys me to no end. Indoors I use a 9 shade and outdoors a 10 in a pancake, I can still see through the lens before the arc that way.  If your putting it in right all the sparks and arc are on the inside of the pipe. The feel and sound will tell you what to do just takes practice. I use a very slight drag on the top a little more on the sides and about 45° on the bottom. Rod angle is critical to how the bead ends up. I didn't learn with a remote because they were very uncommon back then but today I say use whatever makes life easier!

Im not a pipeliner nor a bead hand so i hope my limited experience helps a little. As a young man I did work in the pipeline world as a helper and that's how the old pipeliners taught me to do it. Has always worked good for me.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-05-2012 18:24
That's what happens with me. Get the rod in there and the auto will kick off. Once you get it in like that and a consistant gap you can one hand it and just sit back and have a yawn moment.

On one thing though I have never turned my machine up for a hot pass, grind out the wagon tracks and then run the hot pass. If I get my root in there right then I don't need to push it in further with a hot pass, nothing against the real pro's out there just have not had to do it, could be a difference in style.

As far as the pushing in part, I need a pen and paper! I like to think of the rod and pipe looking thru the pipe and seeing it from an end view and when explaining it. Think of the rod tip on the same plane as the inside of the pipe. The arc force is blowing into the pipe. This is where the the gap comes into play. The perfect or near perfect gap and it will run smooth as silk. Inconsistant gap and then you have to play with it as in pulling it out and putting more of the arc force on the edges to break them down and keep the keyhole open. To tight and you can stall it out(maybe not an industry term). I also like to keep the rod as near to perpendicular as possible. If you've done uphill pipe it's the same thing, nearly. You can whip and keep the keyhole open or plunge the rod in and drag uphill just as you would a downhill. Guess it just depends on the inspector(I'm guessing) as maybe they want the ripple root or a wedding band root.

I hate offering advise to guys of your calibre, what can I offer! LOL! One thing I've learned from older welders is everybody does it different and just hearing what everybody else does might give insight into what works for you.
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 02-06-2012 04:23
Cummins,  Cut more pipe nipples today, gonna try runnin' a couple roots tommorrow after I get the troops movin'. I think I've been avoidin' the rod be'in buried in the gap because it was kickin'off my auto!!!!!:red:  Thanks for the advice need all I can get!!!!!
Parent - By TRC (***) Date 02-06-2012 17:34
If you find yourself in the York area give me a holler maybe we can get together. - Ted
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 02-07-2012 01:05
The bead is a mixture of feel and sound. It really can be ran blind. It is really hard to describe the feel as every DH welder has their own pressure that works for them.
Gap and land is important but not near as much as a open root low high. Work on recognizing the sound. It is bacon cooking. Smooth crackling. When the keyhole is right you will hear the sound. If you have your land and heat right the keyhole will be round and just about the diameter of the welding rod. When the keyhole starts getting too big, and you are fixing to blow through you can pick up your hand and close up the keyhole. If the keyhole starts to choke out you can lessen up on the pressure and drop your hand to lengthen the keyhole.
With three or four coupons you should be getting a good bead. Work on rod angle and pressure.
This is a dragging motion. There is no whip to the rod. And it is like riding a bicycle. You will go nuts getting everying moving in the same direction, then when it hits you, it is like the most natural thing and you wonder how you made it so hard!
Parent - - By hojopens3 (**) Date 02-05-2012 01:04
The best way to learn to run a root is do it barefooted, it dont take long to learn to keep the rod pushed in
Parent - - By Pickupman (***) Date 02-05-2012 01:51
Barefooted:eek:. Thats funny hojo.
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 02-05-2012 06:33
Lay thay rod in there, Smooth. Dont push straight in. Pressure that would make the rod bend back toward you as you progress.Fast, efficient, and effective. More down than in. Hard to word.
Parent - By rick harnish (***) Date 02-05-2012 06:42
Hello back, Mr. Wade!! Im alive and kickin!!
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need advice on putting in a down hill 6010 root

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