Hello- Have a brand new miller 180SD. Wired per Miller specs. 70 amp breaker 2 hots and a ground 220V. The problem is when I start to run a bead if any water is running in the house it reduces the flow to about 1/4 of the normal. I know it sounds weird but it's true. Checked everything , welds great. The shop is attached to a 2700' house, city water no pump. Wondering what could be the problem?
This may sound far fetched, but I ran into all kinds of weird stuff when working with X-10 electrical devices.
I'm wondering if the high prequency of your Tig is somehow backfeeding across the electrical lines and somehow getting into the water service flow meter wires and somehow making it a restriction device? definately strange.
Does the cooling water run continuously or only when the torch is energized?
The water runs fine until I strike the arc with the the HF. It does it in AC and DCEN. Both hot and cold side of the faucets turn into a weak stream when I strike the arc. As soon as I quit the water pressure returns to normal.
Got me on this one. Unusual problem for sure. I ran water (continuously) straight out of the tap when I had my Miller 250HF, no problems. City pressure. I did fry the insultation on the incoming power lines though (without blowing the breaker).
Maybe the Goose has something with his post.
Better yet, you will get lot's of responses and then for the grand finale', we will all find out what's happening.
Maybe the water is "bipolar"...
The cooler is a Bernard. Completly closed loop. Dosn't touch the Water Supply. The HF is causing problems with the TV.
Just a wild guess here, and no I am not stoned...
If you have metal water piping, and the ground wire for your house or the feed wire for the outlet your welder is plugged in to is wrapped around it, you may be magnetizing the piping when you stike an arc. Possibly magnetized piping is pulling down the spring loaded seat in the pressure reducing valve between your house and the street, causing less water flow?
Have you tried plugging in to a different outlet to see if the water is still affected?
Can you trace down the main ground wire for the house?
You may try running an additional ground from the outlet you are using.
Please let us know if you figure this out!
Tim
My pressure regulator is mounted just inside my basement wall where the water supply enters the house. It is about 3' from my breaker panel which is grounded to it. Tim may have something to think about. All the filings and scrap laying in the floor of the shop jump all over the leads when you weld, it could possibly magetize the pipe enough to pull in the valve, I guess.
Love to know what's happening at Jim's house!
John Wright
Hello- The main H2O line to the house along with the rest of the house is PVC. The house is in Florida. There is a Backflow preventer on the main 3' from the meter. Required by code if you have a Sprinkler system. I believe I'll install a separate ground adjacent to the plug. FWIW the Tig uses a CK torch with easy flex leads 25', and a 1/0 ground lead. The machine is plugged directly into a 220v 3 prong, crows-foot receptacle. Standard length from machine to wall. The cooler is wired into the Tig for auto on when the machine is fired up. Another weird thing is that whenever I AC/HF with the machine it cause's my teeth to hurt. I've Tig-ged with other HF machines and never had a problem. I tried to contact Sister Cleo but she was to busy to give me a good "Reading". I'm kinda leary to use the machine until I get this straightened out. Don't desire to become a Christmas light.
I would try another temp ground just to see what is up.You better sell the thing and buy an inverter.that way you can weld without continuous HF.
If your absolutely sure the machine is wired correctly, there 's a few more things to try.
1.) Drill and install a dedicated ground into the foundation using a 1" dia. copper rod at least 3-4' long right at the machine if it is stationary. Drill the pilot hole then start hammering away, it's good exercise for your arms and shoulders, not your teeth. Attach a #12 gauge wire (or larger) to the ground with an electrical fitting, hose clamp, etc. Make sure there is a clean, sound connection to the rod and the equipment chassis. Note: A larger dia. rod is easier to hammer without bending.
This has solved problems for me twice in the past. The Syncrowave I used at one company would screw up all the computers in accounting (only in one area) every time I hit the pedal or was on AC full time. Used this method again a few years ago while running two Miller Phoenix's simultaneously on one piece of equipment, it did help some.
2.) Try using the coolant by Miller that is supposed to eleminate this HF leakage. I have tried this stuff, but I don't know that it works.
I don't think you need to sell your brand new machine, it sounds like it may be wired incorrectly. If you dim the lighting in the area, try energizing the torch and see if you find any HF shorts anywhere around the fittings, the machine housing, etc. They are easy to see in diffused light.
p.s. Isn't Sister Cleo under investigation for fraud? Try Dionne Warwick and the phsycic friends instead, maybe your teeth won't hurt as much.
p.s.s. The bipolar is supposed to be a play on words.
I tend to agree with the comments that the welder could be wired wrong internally. I would definitely run a seperate ground to see if that helps. You said that you connected 2 hot leads and a ground. Normally a 230V cable is 2 hots, a neutral conductor, and a separate ground conductor.
Something else you may want to do is to look up "triplen harmonics" on an internet search engine. I'm not an expert on it but in a nutshell, power supplies in everything from computers to welders can cause a power backfeed problem with a frequency that is a harmonic (or multiple) of the 60 hz from the incoming power. It can cause all kinds of weird things to happen, including burning out wiring. This problem is not limited to commercial applications.
Because you are dealing with high frequencies, which will be a harmonic of 60 hz, it might be that eddy currents are causing electromagnetic fields in a valve somewhere upstream of your hot water supply, likely in your water meter, that restricts the flow. (A copper coil has a magnetic field in it when current is flowing through it, so the valve might not have to have steel parts in it. That fact that your teeth hurt suggests stray eddy currents or RF energy and that you might just have a filling or two.
Interference with your TV can be caused by power line back feed (triplen harmonics) or also radio frequency energy (RF) from the welding. To help reduce RF interference, you can put sheet metal that is electrically grounded, between the welding and the TV set. Such as metal siding; either on the outside of the building or a few sheets inside on the walls (helps keep sparks from starting a fire too).
As far as water being "bipolar", it is "dipolar" which can be demonstrated be dribbling water from your faucet and putting a statically charged comb next to it. The water stream will deflect towards the comb. But I don't think high frequency backfeed would have a constriction effect on water in a pipe.
It's looking like I've seen too many Star Trek reruns here, but I do suggest you research the triplen harmonics. Better grounding often solves the problem but there also are other ways that is best described by the experts.
Mork signing off, Nanoo Nanoo
CHGuilford
Jim,
Seen Rod Sterling around lately- this sounds like its out of the Twilight Zone.
Sorry for the humor at your expense, but if you are looking for magnetic fields you might try a (not too) cheap, Wal-Mart sport-section variety compass. Also often suitable for finding electrical problems in automobiles; I know it works on such DC and can be surprisingly sensitive... you have very little to lose.
Just out of curiosity, with your PVC plumbing, how is your electrical system grounded? A common practice was to tie electrical service ground to a cold water pipe; an excellent ground rod. As PVC is not suitable you might consider verifying the earth ground at your service box, particularly if you might-could have aluminum ground wire which is particularly susceptable to corrosion at the connection to a Cu ground rod... I guess that could cause an improper wiring situation that might be hard to find.
DGXL's advice about grounding sounds good also but its a hard row to hoe.
Unfortunately I know very little about the design of water flow control and metering equipment, but your problem is, as you suggested, incredible and I wish you luck finding the solution.
A final curiosity; how many faucets do you have to open in your house to reduce the flow to the level you encounter while welding? I doubt it would lead to a solution, but it would satisfy a curiosity.
Regards,
d
I checked the Earth ground everything seems OK. I have a buddy who's a Electrician who's gong to help this weekend. The problem occurs with any number of faucets open.
Jim,
The electrician will help eximinate an array of variables.
You missed my point in the last answer, though, and if you'll indulge me I will try to clarify. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I sum up my understanding of the entire thread:
...you stated you experience a severe depletion in household water flow which you associate with your welder's arc. I understand you have eliminated it's cooling system as a source of the problem, and have traced it to the power supply (or arc) itself. We are now focusing our attention on electromagnetic effects generated unspecified distances from the various components of your plumbing system, anticipating that the welder is creating enough electromagnetic force to act upon your water meter or other similar device and cause it to act as a restrictor...
Now I am trying to quantify the magnitude of the resistance to water flow. Given the connotation of some significant distance between the welder and various flow control components of your plumbing system, this becomes an interesting detail for me, and I was trying to evaluate the robustness with which the plumbing was designed; I'm developing a different premise.
With no arc- the welder off and/or disconnected and totally out of the picture- can you get a similar depletion in flow at, for example, your kitchen faucet by flushing a toilet, or is it necessary to turn on the shower, fill the washing machine and diswasher, water the lawn, and open all the other faucets in the house? How much other water needs to be running to make a similar trickle to that caused by your welder?
I doubt the answer will help you solve your problem. I would hope the compass idea might be of some use, though.
As you commented, this is an unusual problem. I am also thinking about perhaps a less likely cause than a restriction intermittantly imposed in your pipes- instead, I'm thinking about the possibility of an intermittant leak- on the premise that the restriction is a one in a million scenario nobody here has seen before the odds are, for practical purposes, similarly remote if the "leak" is a one in three million possibility. I have had leaks in the run between the street valve and water meter that are nearly impossible to find; they're not inside the house.
Nevertheless, my bet is on electromagnetic effects acting upon a flow control, measuring device, or [debris upon a] filter screen- the direction you're already going. Ground the welder through a dedicated grounding device. This "leak" idea is an "if all else fails" contingency... a plan "B" alternate course of action if that EMR can't be controlled and all else fails.
Good luck with it; hope I helped
d
Pure conjecture here- Do you have the kind of water meter that reports usage to the authority by electronic means rather than a visit from the meter reader? If so perhaps the meter can also be instructed to restrict or turn off the flow by said authority (in case of drought for example). Now- if all above is true perhaps some feedback from the welder is convincing the meter that a drought exists and flow should be restricted. If so electrical filtering at the meter may be able to solve the problem.
Significant current in a ground is always a fault. Idealy you should get no reading on a clamp on ammeter set on AC at the lowest range (milliamps at most). The ground is bare or green. The white wire is neutral and may correctly have significant current. If the breaker that feeds the welder is a ground fault device any current in the ground should trip it. Checking the water pipe near the water meter with the ammeter while somebody welds could be informative. Enough current to magnetically effect the water flow would be easily read.
Good luck with your puzzle-
Bill
Hello- I found the problem. The Sprinkler System control box is approximately 10' from the welder. It is causing the control box to trip 2 of the zones on at the same time. With 2 zones on at the same time it drops the water pressure to the house. The Sprinkler system Tap is between the main and the house. Now all I need to do is come up with a solution. Going to attach another Earth Ground. This removes the option of having a mobil unit unless I add a dedicated ground cord. If anyone could help would appreciate.
Thank You-Jim S.
Jim,
Basically, it was additional water load and not restriction then?
Presuming proper hook-up and grounding of your welder does not solve the problem, the options might include shielding, reorienting the welder, or perhaps relocating the sprinkler control system.
Proper shielding technique has already been described; shield your sprinkler box. Relocating the sprinkler system is a job, and turning off power to it will defeat the program you installed in the timer... turning off the water at the sprinkler, even by an added electrical valve operated by means of a switch in your shop, will tend to cause missed waterings & problems as well.
Seek advice from the equipment manufacturer. FCC regulations govern the design of most devices that can create RF energy and they have engineers who should know how to controll it.
Same for your sprinkler controll box. I have seen unpredictable operation caused merely by two wires (actually more like ribbon cables) routed too close to one another; the factory fix that worked was merely a piece of thick tape to keep them apart an extra .030"; a similar issue may be causing sensitivity to interference; obversely, there may be a means of filtering out the effect of the interference from the circuitry itself.
Good Luck
d
First considering through the air transmission. The arc itself is a strong emitter so first I would try to eliminate it- the easiest way would be to first move the welding itself as far as possible from the sprinkler control perhaps also as a test weld inside a grounded metal enclosure. If that isn't successful the welder electronics are also a potential emitter although if the box is properly grounded it should block these emissions quite well. A grounded metal box over the sprinkler control would help for either of the above.
Second considering through the power line transmission. Goose's mention of X10 fits in well. Many sprinkler systems use X10 controls. X10 works by forcing information pulses back into the power lines mostly I think near the zero crossings. If the HF is feeding back into the power line it could easily confuse any X10 device. An oscilloscope (sp?) on the line would indicate if the HF was there but it's a device not found in most tool boxes. Filtering might be a bother since at the welder large amounts of power are involved and at the control box the filter that removes the confusing HF may also remove the signals that run the system.
If the problem is either emission from the box through the air or back into the power line you may have a warranty issue. I would at least describe the problem to your Miller rep. They like to have happy customers and may be helpful.
Good luck, happy holiday
Bill
Sprinkler system! I just dug a foot of snow outta' my drive! Happy Holidays!
4 months later- Noticed my water bill has been low. The meter quit working and is inop now, still have H2O flow as normal. Happened at the same time the 180SD was started. A audible clicking noise is heard from the meter but the needle and digits are stuck. My electrician buddy is going to trouble shoot again. Last time we ran a check nothing out of the ordinary was noted. Still have suspicion that the HF is causeing some problems.
Jim Shoulders
Jim:
4 months later I STILL think it is the HF as well. Keep in touch and let us know what you did to resolve this issue. I have many HF stories in addition to those noted in my previous post. But that won't solve your problem. Grounding rods are not as hard to install as noted previously.
This has been a curious problem, do let us know what you find out.
John Wright
when I hooked up to city water my meter did not run for the first month. They didn't like the usage it was showing and sent someone out to investigate the matter. The meter had a chunk of rust or scale in it. Letting water through, but not registering any usage. Got a good deal on the first bill!
Forum
