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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / U-STAMP compliance question
- - By Kix (****) Date 03-13-2012 12:26
Company A is a U-Stamp compliant shop and is building a unit to ASME Sec VIII Div1.  Company A wants to sub out a component and have company B weld on it.  Company B only has welding procedures in accordance to Sec IX and they are not a ASME U-Stamp compliant shop.  The component requires RT and PT testing which would be done upon the components return to company A.  This is also where the AI could inspect it.  However, Company B is across the street where the AI could also inspect.  Is it correct to say that Company B can't weld on the component because they are not U-STAMP compliant or can they?

Thanks,
Kix
Parent - By qcrobert (***) Date 03-13-2012 15:46 Edited 03-13-2012 15:51
Yes you are correct that Co. B cannot perform the fabrication....because Company A does not have total operational control of Company B.  Co. B does not have an approved (by ASME Review Team) QC Manual that describes the control of the assurance system.

In order to fabricate "U" stamped components you must employ an Authorized Inspection Agency.   No AIA is going to approve your fabricated parts from a non-stamp company.

QCRobert

PS  I am impressed with DRS companies...:smile:
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 03-13-2012 21:55
This problem sounds so familiar.  You don't happen to be in New Jersey?
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-14-2012 00:39
Nope, Missouri.  Is company A in New Jersey now trying to figure some way for comany B to weld to their procedures and control them under there quality program because they think comapy B is considered a field site per UW-26 in sec VIII? lol
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 03-14-2012 11:46
Company A is risking losing their stamp if ASME accreditation dept finds out.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-14-2012 16:59
I have to disagree somewhat with what everybody has said. The crux for me is what robert indicated. If company B operates under Company A's procedures and program its who cares. ASME don't care who's name is on the paychecks. As for roberts operational control they are across the street. Impose operational control.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-17-2012 21:43
By operational control, do you mean:
Company A has to have authority, i.e., direct supervision, over what and how the welders employed by Company B perform the work?
Does Company A have to have authority to dismiss any welder not following the WPS or other work instructions?
Does Company A schedule the working hours of the workforce employed by Company B?
Does Company carry the liability insurance should something go wrong with the work or if a worker is injured on the job?

Just curious.

Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-19-2012 12:20
Al,
Items 1) yes
Item 2) Dismissal is not a requirement but even when subcontractors are using their own program it is not unusual for customers to prohibit certain welders, and this is certainly the case in code jobs where the AI would have that authority as well.
Item 3) Scheduling work hours is a who cares. It not a code issue, its a project managment issue.
Item 4) This is entirely unrelated to the code issues.
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 03-18-2012 14:14
I agree with Jeff provided Company A maintains operational control of the welding activities. In my opinion, if they simply subcontract the supply of the vessel to Company B, and allow them to work under their own quality program, welding program and welder qualifications, that would not be considered "operational control". Company B would need to be using Company A shop travellers and quality control procedures, as well as have welders qualified by Company A and perform the welding using Company A welding procedures. Company A's AI would also need to be provided the ability to review any activities performed in Company B's shop.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-19-2012 12:22
A much more complete answer than mine, and I agree.
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 03-19-2012 16:48
Interesting.  To give everyone an update, Company A's AI is basically saying the same thing as MBSims.  The AI is going to run it past the representative from the National board that is doing company A's U-Stamp renewal.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 03-19-2012 20:23
I concur with your statements.

Unlike our company's R Stamp cert (shop/field), our U & PP Stamps only allow us to fabricate pressure vessels at our shop location.  With concurrence of our A.I., we can have another company perform welded work on a pressure vessel only if our QA Manager is there on-site full time and has full operational control of ALL activities (i.e., CONTROL OF traveler, purchasing, receiving, material area, mtrs, filler metal, testing, etc.)  In addition the other company's welders must retest to our welding procedures.

This has also been rejected once by our AI because of other company's track record.

If the Company A that Kix if referring to is in the process of renewing their U Stamp cert, they may be including the other company into their QC System which would result in a full audit of Company B's QA Manual.  One cannot just write in another company's name and address in Company A's Manual.

Btw, the NBIC representative in Oregon is the State of Oregon Boiler & Pressure Vessel Chief Inspector or one of his Deputy Inspectors.

QCRobert
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-20-2012 12:20
Robert,
Actually your post is dead on. I stand corrected. For new construction the stamps are location specific. So therefore you would not be able to have them fabricate at another location. I don't know why I didn't think of that.

On the other hand I would have had an 'issue' with the AI. In other words, diplomatically told him to take a running back flip. They are not God. The code does not give the AI authority over the hiring practices of a company. There is recourse.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 03-20-2012 13:56
Yep, not God but then again work will not proceed without AI's sig.  Besides I like maintaining an amiable relationship (since 1992) with our AI in that he has allowed considerations in the past that made our work proceed without a hitch.

QCRobert
Parent - By north_fl_cwi (*) Date 03-24-2012 02:29
Yep, dead on.  Also, the first thing my AI always ask when I ask him a question is, #1 - What does YOUR QC manual say?  If it doesn't say you can, or have a procedure setup for you to do it, you can not.  #2 - What does the Code book say?  From there, we work it out.  The AI might not be God, but they pull a lot of weight.  Not for us, but for another company, I have seen an AI walk off site and shut a new boiler construction site down.  You want to talk about "kissing up" phone calls being made REAL quick, it was a sight to see.  And you want to know what it was about.... Company "A" trying to "claim" Company "B" was part of their company and fabricating parts for the boiler, when in fact the AI finally traced down they were NOT and doctoring paperwork to make it appear that they were.  ASME and NB was involved before it was all done, pretty sure Company "A" went bankrupt over the deal (got into liquidated damages).
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / U-STAMP compliance question

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