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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Drawing Note Interpretation
- - By bamaCWI (**) Date 04-25-2012 19:44 Edited 04-25-2012 19:50
We just received shop drawings for a new contract that has this note, “ALL WELDS SHALL BE IAW AWS D1.1”. No additional information was provided in the contract documents.
As I interpret this, the current edition of D1.1 in its entirety is applicable. If my interpretation is accurate shouldn’t D1.1 also be incorporated into the design of the welded connections?

Thanks for any comments.
Scott
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 04-26-2012 10:45
That's what it sounds like to me.
But isn't it up to your detailer to make your shop drawings in accordance with D1.1?  As long as he does that then I think you'll be all set.
Parent - By bamaCWI (**) Date 04-26-2012 11:19
In my past experience within the structural industry you are correct. The detailer would resolve any issues, detail the weld joints, and I could easily create our WPS's and qualify accordingly. However in my little part of the aerospace/defense industry, they just weld it or that is what they have done in the past before I was hired by the company.
Parent - - By bamaCWI (**) Date 04-26-2012 11:26
This sketch is only one of my concerns. In my opinion these welds would fall under skewed T-Joint details.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-26-2012 14:00 Edited 04-27-2012 02:38
If the weld is in the joint it is a groove weld. If it is on the joint it is a fillet weld. The skewed joint is neither a groove nor a fillet. It is handled differently, thus in Clause 2 they have several subclauses that specifically address skewed joints.

Looking at the sketch you embedded in your post, I would be inclined to call this a partial joint penetration groove weld. The weld is situated at the end of the plate or the bar and the groove angle is dependent on the joint geometry. The weld size, within the brackets, indicates the weld size required. If this is a takeoff from an S drawing provided by the Engineer, the information is sufficient. If it is from a detailer it should have provided additional information.

The basis of calling this a partial joint penetration groove weld is that this configuration is no different than a beam flange welded to a column flange, i.e., a moment connection. In this case the flanges do not intersect at 90 degrees, they intersect at something other than 90 degrees and the bevel angle is dependent on the joint geometry. As long as the angle conforms to one of the prequalified joint details for a single bevel PJP, all is well in the “land of welding”. Looking through the sketches for prequalified groove details: BTC-P4-GF or BTC-P4 can have a groove angle as small as 40 degrees in the “as fit up” condition. Notes J and K indicate the orientation of the members can be at other than 90 degrees. (looking at D1.1:2008)

If you are working to D17.1, good luck. They don't have the finesse of D1.1. The joint details are more applicable to sheet metal than structural shapes.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By bamaCWI (**) Date 04-27-2012 00:34
Thanks for the input. We are working to D1.1 however I will be the first to admit that I have very limited experience with D1.1 and skewed joints. I went through Clause 2 several times looking for the orientation tolerances given in Note j (Fig. 3.3) that you so kindly directed me to. Now I just have to work out all the other issues when fabricating a piece of machinery to the requirements of a structural welding code.
Thanks again
Scott
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-27-2012 02:48 Edited 04-27-2012 03:59
There is a high probability the detailer isn't an expert in the nuances of D1.1. Most detailers I've worked with have a very limited working knowledge of all the requirements for sizing and detailing welds. More often than not, if queried on how they came up with a particular weld detail they'll usually say something like, "I saw it on a different drawing, so I used it for this joint. It looks almost the same."

Let’s face facts, welding symbols work like a charm for 90% of the joint details, but there is always that 10% that is in the gray area. I usually recommend that a sketch be drawn to depict what is required. A skewed joint is a perfect example. The skewed joint is neither a fillet weld nor a groove weld. It is something in between. The standard welding symbol falls short of giving the welder the information needed to properly prepare and weld the joint. At best, the welder and the inspector have you take a leap of faith and try to read the detailer’s mind and the welding symbol as to what is really required.

I resist taking those leaps of faith and go back to the detailer and ask for a sketch.

Al
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 05-01-2012 17:34
I would agree with Al and PJP to D1.1 is what I see.
What usully they have is the same exact sketch and weld symbol but no weld size or depth of bevel.  Then it becomes interesting becasue you have to ask is it a PJP or a CJP becasue they didn't say anything.
Parent - - By bamaCWI (**) Date 05-16-2012 11:06 Edited 05-16-2012 11:44
Just as a follow up to the weld note "ALL WELDS SHALL BE IAW AWS D1.1", our customer and EOR, through the request of certain OTHER individuals, has offered the following interpretation of the note: "Welding be IAW D1.1 to encompass the welder certification, inspection IAW Table 6.1, the design section of D1.1 is not applicable, and inspect to statically loaded criteria.  My request for clarification/confirmation that  “ Is it the intent of this interpretation to (1) relieve the requirements for use of written WPS’s and the qualification thereof,  (2) relieve the requirements of workmanship, and (3) relieve  the other requirements for welding inspection”.  The answer, yes these requirements are not applicable. I can’t help to wonder, why not just remove the standard all together.
Scott
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-16-2012 13:40
Just because the individual has a degree in engineering or holds a P.E. isn't a guarantee he or she isn't an idiot. I have encountered many educated whack jobs in my career.

I ran into a professor that wanted to build a vessel that was 1-meter by 1-meter by 1-meter to contain 20,000 psi. He wanted flat sides, a 500 mm round port on each of four sides made out of “Plexiglas”, and he didn’t want to be bothered with meeting ASME Section VIII requirements because they were too restrictive.  One word comes to mind; Whack job!

Best regards – Al
Parent - By bamaCWI (**) Date 05-17-2012 14:46
I concur! I did however ask them how to qualify welders IAW D1.1 without the use of a WPS. Still awaiting their response.
Regards
Scott
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-18-2012 07:10 Edited 05-18-2012 07:17
That's because the clown saw it done in a "Star Trek" movie thinking that there is transparent aluminum readily available for anyone to use.:eek::confused::lol::wink:

Al, your words of wisdom never cease to amaze me friend! Whack job indeed!:eek::confused::wink::lol::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-18-2012 13:32
As I said, I see myself as sent by "God" with the sole purpose of providing entertainment for others.

This post reminds me of the story my father told me about the goings on in the company he work with for 40 some odd years. It seems they hired a new engineer from a well respected university. The fellow was supposed to be brilliant. They had to move a piece of machinery from one location to another which also required the machine to be moved down one level. It seems the prime mover, a bull dozer, was on the upper level and had to be taken from the upper level by driving out a large door and around the building to get down to the lower level. The engineer didn't want to wait for the operator to get back from lunch, so the engineer jumps on board the dozer (how hard can it be to drive a dozer?) and proceeds to drive it toward the stairwell. My father asked the engineer what were his plans. The engineers said he was taking the stairs because it was a shorter route. "Are you sure you want to do that? The operator will be back in the next 10-minutes or so." said my father.

"I can be down on the lower level by the time he gets here!" said the engineer. "The stairs will be fine."

My father stood back and let the engineer drive the dozer past him and toward the stairs. One of the fellows with him sprinted toward the stairwell to make sure no one was using them. My father stopped anyone from entering while he shook his head in disbelief.

With a crash, tearing of steel and a cloud of dust the dozer landed on the lower level. The rest of the crew had to use a ladder to get down to the lower level.

The engineer was conferred another degree: "Whack Job".

A college degree doesn’t ensure common sense and we discover common sense isn’t all that common.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-18-2012 14:53
You must admit though, he did get it down before the operator returned from lunch!!! :eek: :lol:  :roll:

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 05-18-2012 18:59
Yes, but the dozer now was worth  $ 8.00 / ton -
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-19-2012 03:21
Scrap steel is $250 around here.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Drawing Note Interpretation

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