Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Rainbow effect
- - By Jack8rkin (*) Date 05-15-2012 13:48
Hello everyone!
Guys, what do you usually call the effect in the picture below?
Any formal term for that in the U.S.?
Attachment: _10.jpg.jpeg (80k)
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 05-15-2012 14:21
Discoloration or Oxidation, as a result of oxygen absorbing into the surface of heated metals.
The attached picture shows how various levels of oxygen exposure produce discoloration is stainless steel.

Tim
Parent - - By Golden Arm (*) Date 04-07-2016 14:51
They're temper colors. Each color develops at a differnt temperature over a given period of time.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-07-2016 15:20
Hold your horses there Golden Arm

"Temper colors" you can find in any number of charts, but all the temper color charts are specific to carbon steel that is in an ambient air atmosphere.   They have no relation to time, only oxy/nitrogen contact at various temperatures and the oxide colors that develop at a given temperature...

Those colors are *all* forming under the lower transformation temperature of steel, so I've always wondered why they call them "temper" colors.

Also, the colors only indicate the temperature at the surface of the material, and say zero about the temp of the material below the very surface, unless soak time calculation vs base metal geometry and thickness are also included.

The oxide colors that appear on stainless, nickel alloys and various super alloys will be entirely different than what you see on a common "temper color" chart when exposed to oxygen and nitrogen... Titanium is altogether different in both color and effect of oxides and nitride in both alpha case and full thickness contamination.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-15-2012 20:32
It is sometimes referred to as iridescence. It can be simple oxidation due to insufficient shielding as noted already, but it can also be an indication that the adjacent surfaces have not been sufficiently cleaned. Surface contaminations such as oils, coatings, etc. can volatize when heated and compromise the local shielding.

The iridescence is produced when the base metal is exposed to atmospheric gases and are the same as the colors observed when tempering metals in air. The color is an indication of the temperature of the base metal when it was exposed to air.

On the other hand, the discoloration resulting from the volatizing material on the surface of the base metal can result in contamination of the weld. The gases produced by “off gassing” can be detrimental to the mechanical properties of the weld. I have encountered this problem when welding tubulars if the welder did not swab the ID of the tubing with alcohol or other suitable solvent before assembling them for welding.

Al
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 05-15-2012 23:18
I know next to nothing about stainless.  So is the rainbow look a bad thing..?  I have heard of the weld needing to be a straw color and not blue.  Why is that. Does the blue color mean its weaker or prone to fail.  What is wrong with sugar on the inside of a pipe..?  I know its bad but why..?  Is it more prone to cracking whith sugar.  Sorry if these are dumb questions.  Im just trying to learn something..  Thanks...!
Parent - By atc250r (**) Date 05-16-2012 01:08
If the bead on a stainless joint is "sugared", that means the purge wasn't sufficient.  I understand the weld can still be integrally strong, but a "sugared" bead is no longer corrosion resistant.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-16-2012 01:10 Edited 05-16-2012 01:14
RC the sugar means oxygen has had its way with the metal while it was good and hot.  It sat there and burned.  It can cause cracking and I think "embrittlement" of the weld.  I could be way wrong but I have lived by that mantra for a long time.  But the "colors" you get with stick welding stainless sometimes just can't be helped when the flux starts jumping off and exposing it a little early.   I have been told "little too much heat" when you get that rainbow of color stickwelding...but it was running just right.  Tig welding if you can get a nice even light gold...you got it dialed in just right as far as heating your base metal, travel speed and how much your laying down.   I am sure someone could explain all that in how and why and probably show that I am off my rocker too but that's the little bit I think I know about it.:grin:

Is that the verge of the "star effect" I see in the op's top pic...almost but not quite>?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-16-2012 03:49 Edited 05-16-2012 03:52
If you are welding a reactive metal, light straw is tolerated. Some welding standards even allow dark straw, etc., but the bottom line is that the oxygen from the atmosphere has interacted with the base metal. The interaction between oxygen (nitrogen and hydrogen as well) permeates reactive base metals such as titanium and zirconium.

That isn't the case with metals such as ferrous, nonferrous, and refractory metals (some refractory metals also are reactive, example: tungsten) such as austenitic stainless steel, nickel, carbon steel, etc., where the reaction with oxygen is primarily a surface effect. That is, if you were to remove the iridescence, no damage is suffered by the substrate. That is very different than the permanent damage experienced by reactive metals where the damage typically extends through the full thickness of the base metal.

In the case of a reactive metal, the iridescence can be removed with a wire brush, but the damage is permanent. The affected weld and base metal must be removed and replaced. Welding over the affected area may look fine, but there is no recovery, the damage is done.

One of my clients forges titanium for aerospace applications. After forging at high temperatures, even with the protective measures they take, they chemically mill at least 2-inches of base metal from all exposed surfaces to get down to the unaffected base metal.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 05-16-2012 09:19
Thanks for the post Al.  Now my next question.  If someone wants to cheat and buff the weld to try to hide there screw up will an Xray or UT pick up the damaged weld..?  And if so what does it show up as.   I have heard that they can pick up sugar but if the weld is sound for the most part how does it show up.  Im sure there are lots of guys that try to cheat and there has to be a way to catch them...!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-16-2012 13:32
The sensitivity of RT is not as impressive as some people are lead to believe. In general, a number of welding standards use 2% as the difference in thickness or density that has to be observable in an RT film. In other words a porosity void must represent at least a 2% change in thickness to be seen on the film. Because porosity can be spherical, the outer diameter of the pore hole is not seen. That is why RT is not a good method of detecting laminations in plate. The lamination does not represent 2% of the thickness of the adjacent base metal, so it isn't detected as a variation in film density (darkness).

Excessive root oxidation can be detected if it represents at least 2% of the material thickness. In most cases the excessive root oxidation is associated with excessive melt through and if the base metal is thin, the roughness of the oxide surface may be detected.

Wire brushing isn't aggressive enough to remove excessive root oxidation from many base metals. The iridescence film that forms is acceptable by many welding standards provided the base metal isn't a reactive base metal. The tint can be removed by wire brushing in many cases. When optimum weld quality is demanded and a reactive base metal is being used, each weld bead is required to be visually inspected before the welder is permitted to deposit additional weld. While the wire brushing removes the visible evidence the hot base metal and weld were exposed to atmospheric gases, the damage has been done and no amount of wire brushing will correct the situation.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Jack8rkin (*) Date 05-17-2012 14:53
Thanks for questions!
And special thanks for answers!
That was more than informative!
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 05-24-2012 01:23
X-ray or UT won't catch it, discoloration is on the order of a few atomic layers thick.  What you are seeing with the different colors is a layer of oxide that bends the light, thicker layers (blue-red-purple) correspond to thicker oxide films. But it's still only several atomic layers thick.  That means the color is easy rubbed off with sand paper, chemically etched or ground down.

You can catch it using destructive methods, small samples can be fed to scanning electron microscopes, LEECO combustion, Auger, and other testing methods, these will tell you exactly how much oxygen nitrogen and carbon you have picked up.

For non destructive tests: eddy current testing and micro hardness can usually identify gross contamination but can't quantify the percentage of oxygen or nitrogen and may not catch small but dangerous amounts.

As a reminder "sugaring" is very severe gross contamination when welding in open air, first of all it burns out alloying elements like carbon, second it has absolutely no strength and for stainless steel no corrosion resistance. If it's left on the inside of pipes it will quickly corrode in service contaminating what ever you're sending through the pipe and possibly leading to a mechanical failure.

for reactive metals like titanium or zirconium. They will instantly accumulate large amounts of oxygen or nitrogen through the whole thickness. THis can ruin corrosion and strength, hence they generally have very tight standards on discoloration. For Zirconium it's usually 100% silver, Or they machine down the top weld layer to get to clean material. 

Final note there's two types of contamination pickup: Liquid and solid. In the liquid state metals will pick up severe amounts of discoloration in miliseconds.  In the solid state they can still build up enough contamination to discolor but generally it only effects that top surface.  This is why some types of discoloration is lived with.  unfortunately the colors are exactly the same so it's near impossible to look at a finalized weld and tell the two apart.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 05-24-2012 01:29
I would just like to reiterate, for zirconium welding it's generally standard practice to always machine or pickle away a certain thickness due to contamination concerns. To emphasize HOW reactive it is. Generally it is welded in a vacuum or a box that is vacuum evacuated and back filled with an 99.995% pure inert gas.  Usually the gas quality is monitored too as it's iffy to believe vendor certs.

Long story short it's extremely reactive and even low levels of oxygen and nitrogen will destroy corrosion properties (what it's famous for)
Parent - - By MetalGirlie Date 05-23-2012 02:56
A dull, grey, textured surface on your stainless, "sugaring", is your chromium oxidizing on the surface and that chromium comes from your whole heat affected zone (HAZ), not just the bead itself.  That changes the chemistry of said HAZ and can change the corrosion resistance of that portion of said stainless.  A gold to rainbow color on the bead is ok, grey=bad, too hot.  A black bead, HAZ, is chromium-carbon bonding which also reduces corrosion resistance.  Surface passivation makes it 'look' nice and shiny (scotch-brite, flap disc, etc.) but complete passivation is usually done with an acid-wash.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-23-2012 13:48
To set the record straight when it comes to a stainless steel weld.

Color, whether gold, blue, grey or black has everything to do with gas coverage and nothing to do with overheating.

If the gas coverage remains on the completed weld as it cools for a sufficient dwell time the color will be silver, whether or not the weld or HAZ has been overheated.

Let's not mix up carbide precipitation in the HAZ and grain boundries  with poor shielding.   Too different conversations.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-23-2012 16:19
One other thing to add to this is that if the corrosive fluid service is on the inside, as it is in almost all cases, its a who cares about the outside other than aesthetics.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-25-2012 02:39
Out of curiosity, how hot is too hot? You have to bring the metal up above the liquidus temperature in order to weld it if you are using a fusion welding process such as GTAW, SMAW, etc.

You can heat the base metal in the presence of air, i.e., nitrogen and oxygen, and form the iridescent heat tint at temperatures above 400 degrees F. The iridescent tint progresses from silver - straw, dark straw, brown, purple, and blue, black with increasing temperatures, all without melting the base metal. The encrusted black oxide that forms while welding and when the root is not shielded properly is simple oxidation. The iron will oxidize. The chrome will oxidize, the nickel will oxidize, as will any other elements exposed to oxygen. Likewise, there is no reason not to expect the same metals to form nitrides of one sort or another when exposed to the nitrogen in the air at the high temperatures associated with welding operations.

That being the case how does one over heat the base metal?

Some metals volatize at relatively low temperatures. They can come out of solution even when proper shielding is present. As an example; consider the black smut that is observed along the length of the weld when using GMAW to weld aluminum with E5356 filler metal. The black smut is actually magnesium that has been vaporized by the heat of the welding arc. The gaseous magnesium then condenses into a liquid and then resolidifies in the outer regions of the shielding gas envelop. Some of the magnesium is oxidized if exposed to air. All of which falls to the surface of the base metal as very small spheres and appears as black smut because any light striking it is absorbed rather reflected toward the individual looking at it.

What happens if one were to give the black smut a quick swipe of the wire brush while it is still hot? Anyone that has tried it will tell you that it looks like a miniature forest fire sweeping the length of the welded joint. It is simply the magnesium compounds oxidizing when exposed to air.

Oxidation because one over heats the base metal? I don't think so.

Al
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-25-2012 03:28 Edited 05-25-2012 03:30
Good points Al... And I used the term "overheat" myself when I was in fact referring to improper cooling rates as they may relate to chromium migration.

Using the proper terms and making sure the person you are communicating with understands those words is so important!  Or else somebody walks away insulted or even worse, thinking they have a solution to there problem when they don't.

This thread is mainly about oxidation colors related to stainless steel I believe.  

Aluminum can certainly have strength reduction over a wider region of base metal if excessive heat is used in welding (one example of overheating, sort of)...

I can also think of examples of a large number of precipitation hardenable super alloys (closer to stainless) that actually perform better as far as corrosion resistance and wear, in turban engines when they have a black oxide coating.  Inco 718, Waspalloy, Has-X, Rene 41 being some common examples.  That oxide coating is tenatious!  Serving a purpose in some applications.  Afterburner flameholders and turkey feathers go red hot in service regularly in regular atmosphere, yet continue to perform as designed.

Going a bit far from the original topic.. But fun to talk about nonetheless.
Parent - By waqasmalik (**) Date 04-03-2016 12:55
Excellent stuff
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Rainbow effect

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill