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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Gas setups
- - By wardaj Date 01-08-2003 17:01
Thanks for the anwsers guys, i have another question. Would a gas setup be a better choise for what i want? How long, roughly, does a 20lb acetylen bottle last for welding?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-08-2003 19:23
You did say you wanted to weld aluminum, didn't you? I've never seen anyone oxy/act weld aluminum. Is the money the reason you have ruled out the mig machine? Maybe you can pick up a SMAW machine cheap and weld all of what you wanted.
John Wright

PS: Aluminum has a short range of temp where it turns fluid until you lose your filler onto the floor at your feet.
Parent - By kam (**) Date 01-08-2003 20:13
You use argon for welding aluminum. For what you say you are going to be welding I personally would suggest a mig welder. Hobart makes pretty good stuff too. I have both mig and stick welders and find myself using the mig welder about 95% of the time. Stick is great for heaver jobs and I wouldnt be without one. I have 4 of them that I have picked up over the years and the last one I bought is an AC only old thing a ma jig but it sure lays a fine bead. Only payed 25 bucks for the thing at an auction. I have tried stick welding aluminum a couple of times but didnt have very good luck. Maybe there is a trick to it that I dont know about.

kam
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 01-08-2003 21:48
You can weld the Aluminum just fine with a Qxy/Acet torch if you don't try to take on to heavy of a section. The Aluminum is a very effective heat sink and can obsorb your heat as fast as you can put it out.

Thats makes PREHEAT and absolute necessisty most of the time. You can get a 400 deg F temp stick to gauge your preheat, then it will weld very nicely. Once you get the hang of it you can do some really great work with just a torch. Its slower and a little more trouble than GTAW but a hell of a lot less expensive.

Most likely you will use 2 ~ 3 times as much Oxygen as Acetylene.

The other materials are generally just as easy with less need for preheat versus higher melting point.
Parent - By CHUB380 (*) Date 01-08-2003 23:20
Hi ,if you decide to go with a gas setup make sure you check out tinmantech.com and look under articles and faq's he has alot of tips for gaswelding steel and alum. He likes this process the best. this is not my opinion, but I think it is a good way to go if funds are limited. you can do alot with a gas rig. Hope the website helps. Chub380 Ps look at FAQ and in that section look at the big question.
Parent - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 01-09-2003 01:37
for auto mechanics, i'd suggest MIG because you only need 1 hand to weld, and you can get into some tighter places. and MIG is more versatile on different materials and is much faster than oxy-acetylene welding. also, consider tack welding...for an oxy-acetylene setup you need to have some clamps or a jig to hold your pieces together till you put a tack weld on it...w/ MIG, you just hold one piece where you want it w/ 1 hand and squeeze the trigger of the gun w/ the other hand. easy as that.
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 01-09-2003 02:55
W,
Every response here already has merit. That said, I support the torch idea. I can not envision a well tooled shop without a torch, and I suspect even as an expert with oxyacetylene you will wind up with some kind of arc welding equipment, but, none of them will match the versitility of the first single tool, your torch. From loostening frozen and rusted bolts, to bending, shrinking, forgeing, cutting, and welding, that torch will be hard to beat. I'll have that frozen bolt burned off before you find the band-aids for your busted knuckles or the thesarus for the vocabulary you will want to use.(BTW the words you want won't be in it anyway)
As with anything, even driving a car, there are potential hazards particularly around oil, grease, and unknowns, but be aware of safety guidelines in handling, use and transport, and take normal precautions.

I frequently use a torch to restore broken bosses on Al castings; its a simple process of adding a bit of Al bronze to the broken boss and grinding it down to original specs... I suspect I can do more intricate repairs but have never had need. I own a GMAW (MIG)_ capable of the job but find it impractical to change over the system... the gas does a satisfactory job, and more efficiently due to the changeover issue. Bear this in mind when you select your electric welder.
You can use a relatively small piece of (sometimes exotic) filler with gas or GTAW, as well as SMAW, or weld without any additional filler at all with the first two processes or perhaps even cut your own piece to use as filler from the very piece being welded or similar scrap, whereas GMAW requires spools of accurately sized filler wire- sometimes more than you would expect to consume in 50 years.

Your question relates to which tool is a proper first step in a repair shop or garage. In my opinion, you gotta have a torch sooner or later, so it becomes a simple decision. Whatever you decide, take a course to learn how to use it properly and safely.

Regards,
d
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-09-2003 12:49
wardaj,
I apologize for the mis-information in my response to your post. I wasn't familiar with welding Aluminum with Oxy/Act. I had never seen it tried before and was speculating that it could not be done with acceptable results. I learned something by you asking the question. Several responses to your post indicated it can be done with satisfactory results.
I have another question about the process, I was wondering about the oxygen present in and around the puddle and it's oxidation of the aluminum and how to keep that from happening. Can someone help shed some light on this for me, Thanks.
Again sorry if I mislead you with my response,
John Wright
Ps, I agree with Dee, every shop should have a torch at some point.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-09-2003 14:26
After thought,
I suppose there are fluxes designed to help control oxidation?
John Wright
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 01-09-2003 14:51
John
When you tune your torch in right you will have a Neutral flame.

Your point is valid in Steel as well as Aluminum.

With an Oxidizing flame you add to much oxygen to your puddle and with a Carburizing flame you add Carbon.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-09-2003 14:55
RonG,
Do you get sweat running off aluminum like you do with steel? I was wondering about the hydrogen problems as well. I guess proper preheat?
John Wright
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 01-10-2003 13:07
John Wright,
If you mean the moisture that forms on the suface as you heat, that will evaporate below you reach the melting point.

There are other post on that subject on this board if you care to search them out.

Or you can take my word for it, when I say the moisture is in the air, not the metal.

The fog on your lens does not come from inside the glass (plastick) but from that hot cup of coffee you just drank.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 01-11-2003 00:16
John,
I'm not at my shop and cannot remember the name of the manufacturer or rod number (its a senior thing going on). I had mentioned it several months ago, maybe a year, but it's a name you would recognize. They make a GMAW rod which they also recommend for oxyacetylene (my rep does not recommend it for GMAW, by the way). Technically it's an aluminum bronze, so you remain correct on technical if not practical grounds- I am not really welding the Al I'm brazing it. Color match is very good and melting point is quite close to Al.
It's flux coated.

Linde's Al welding process has been around since Custer still had hair I think. It relies on a flux I've been unable to buy for decades, hence I use the alternative and find it very satisfactory. As you know Al changes state from solid to liquid very suddenly... it does so shortly after heavy soot from (maladjusted) acetylene flame burns off the surface. It also calls for a little more heat input- a larger torch size- than steel due to its thermal conductivity.

Sorry if I was a little bit misleading- it was unintentional.


Regards,
d
Parent - - By kam (**) Date 01-10-2003 06:36
I would have never thunked it possible (oxy welding aluminum). I'm going to have to give it a try. Always wanting to learn something new. Great post!!!
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-10-2003 12:35
kam,
This was new to me too, I just had never tried it. My thinking was it wasn't practicle with all the obstacles to overcome to produce a sound weld with that process. I keep learning on this BBS, almost daily there is something posted that is new to me and it makes me curious to go out and try what I've learned.
Yeah, I agree, great post,
John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Gas setups

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