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Has anyone used these lo-hy electrodes? I believe they are manufactured by Elbras in Brazil. Professor Crisi, have you had any contact with or knowlege of these electrodes? I have a ppt from Prof. Alexandre Bracarense PhD from the Federal University of Minas Gerais. Very interesting to say the least. I'm curious if anyone has used these or has any information regarding testing. I have two E7018-H4R electrodes - 1/8". I don't want to burn them up however, then I would I have none. Not a lot of testing I could do with two rods anyway. Any info is appreciated - Thank you
I observed the official presentation of these while at FabTech in Chicago last Nov. Prof Crisi didn't seem to know the presenter.
I'm with you, though since we just moved my shop to another property I'm not sure I can even find the two I had, I have not wanted to run much of a test with them as I would not have them any more.
I don't believe they are in any kind of production at the moment. Still in development.
Have A Great Day, Brent
I have never heard of that Manufacturer but we use 7018 H4R all the time, especially when making a repair to the NBIC and using a NBIC Alternative to Post Weld Heat treat method (2011 NBIC Part 3, 2.5.3) The Manufacturer brand we use is ESAB Atom Arc E7018-H4R.
They are basically a Hydrogen Diffusible electrode.
Tony
These particular low hydrogen electrodes do not have exposure limits, do not need to be kept in a storage oven - they have a polymer based flux covering which does not absorb moisture. Everything you know about traditional low hy's can be thrown out the window. So goes the theory...I'd love to hear more from the testing side. To good to be true comes to mind.
Wow, that sounds intriguing...I am going to contact some of my dstributers to see if I can get 10# to do some testing myself.
Thank you for the information.
Tony
As stated above, I do not believe they are in PRODUCTION yet. Still experimental. They don't have an official specification or classification from AWS or any other testing agency. They are only tested by the developers in South America.
The presentation materials and papers read at FabTech were indeed very good and seemed to be heading in a promising direction.
BUT, rather it will truly pass all the controlled lab testing to prove it will produce as promised leaves one thinking "pie in the sky". Will it really work out or is it, as you said, TO GOOD TO BE TRUE?"
Only time will tell. But, it definitely is not available through your local welding supplier currently. I would guess it will be years before we hear more about this.
Have a Great Day, Brent
I can imagine Lincoln and Hobart will take a serious hit if that rod holds its promise.
Naaah
Codes are codes
Those guys can advertize anything they want.
The exposure limits are set by code and we all know how long it takes to get anything changed in committee.
Especially anything with sisemic implications.
I saw a pdf of some rods made in Germany that sort of sounded like what you are describing...the literature didn't read like there weren't any exposure limitations, but that the packaging was so that you could open the package and each rod was individually sealed to maintain a ready to use state upon opening(no re-drying). This flux covering that doesn't absorb moisture sounds like the way to go...provided they are welder friendly, and meet applicable codes and impact properties...but not having to keep a rod oven on the job for lo-hy sounds like a dream come true.
Thanks for the link...I'll have to check it out after I get caught up.....lots of UT, MT and VT work this morning, several pieces that didn't get finished yesterday are all finishing up atthe same time this morning....uggh.
Our own Len Andersen is the inventor of a pretty remarkable Low Hydrogen electrode coating. It can be applied to any electrode brand you want.
I used to have him coat my own rods, and they were tested several months later after being stored in 10 pound plastic rod containers, in one of my rig trucks and they were much lower than H4.
As for the big manufacturers snapping the idea up-Ha! they just waited for his patents to run out, then they still didn't do anything like it! When he applied for his patents, American Bureau of Shipping did the testing. The results were amazing.
You can probably still get Len Andersen to coat your rods for you, but you would have to run your own qualification series with them to use them in any type of code work.
Joe Kane
Ladies and Gentlemen,
My moisture handling electrodes technology ( aluminum powder at 10 micron particle diameter coating ) is covered by patent and in an article in the "Welding Journal" and exhibiting at Annual AWS Meeting in Washington and in Detroit. The patent has run out and I believe the technology is being used widely. There was strong indication of fraud stealing from me and ones attempting to purchase my products. The situation was exhibiting and attempting to call my toll free number 800-428-4801 and not being able to get through the first call for a month after exhibiting. My understanding is big money involved and if burned you might make out contacting 'authorities". I hope this helpful.
Sincerely
Len Andersen weld@spemail.org
914-536-7101 , 212-839-6599 8-4 New York Time , 914-237-7689 (H) www.lenandersen.com
Hello everyone. A friend told me about this forum and I am here to give you some good news about the electrode. I am glad to inform you that we are just finishing the electrode homologation following the ASME Section II Part C - SFA 5.1. The electrode will be classified (AWS) as E7018/E7018-1 or BR H4R. All the samples are welded already and we are going to EWI next week to perform the hydrogen test. Since it is a very unique characteristic of the electrode, the Brazilian Foundation that is performing the homologation decided to do this that way. A box with 20 or 25 kg of the electrode is already following to EWI. We did here in my lab and the hydrogen of the electrode was close to 1.5ml/100gr. Really low considering that the electrode was brought directed from the factory. Anyway, the company has availability to send you same samples, if you which. Please, contact the Director, Mr. Ivan Fichel (ivan@elbras.com.br) or the Industrial Engineer, Mr. Aurecyl Dalla (dalla@elbras.com.br). They will send the samples to your location. We believe, that as soon as the homologation is read, we will be able to sale the electrode here in Brazil. Following and having interest, we can start to sale it in US and in Europe. Any further question, please, do not hesitate in contact me.
Thank you for this reply. I look forward to seeing how this progresses. I do have a question regarding potential usage. Given that there is a completely different approach to flux composition, it is probably safe to assume there would be different arc characteristics. Would there be any limitations to single or multipass, position (flat, vertical, overhead) or progression (uphill, downhill). I would think the answer would be no to the first two given the potential classification is E7018. Curious about progression. I am aware that these questions may be premature, just curious and day dreaming about applying this technology to pipeline repair/construction.
We already did all out of position test in single and multipasses and the results were fantastic. It welds vertical up and down hill very easy. The slag covers very well the bead and the view of the welder is also very easy. One can say that I am suspicious to say but we already have production to send you electrodes for test if you which. We are not selling because we are waiting for the homologation. Please, contact Mr Ivan and ask him some samples. I am sure he will be glad to do so. By the way, the current we are using is 20% lower than the one of the convectional 7018 electrode. Next week I will be in EWI in Columbus Ohio, following hydrogen test. After that, and with the other results (mechanical tests), I can send to you the results. We are very confident with the results I presented in the FABTECH. We have been reproducing them here in my lab.
Hello everybody, I am just arriving from the Edison Welding Institute at Columbus Ohio, where I went to perform the hydrogen test in our electrode. The results are as follows. For the 3.25 mm diameter electrode: as received: AC welding = 1.8 ml and DCEP welding 1.2 ml. After exposure (9 hours in a chamber at 80% humidity at 27C): AC = 2.3 ml and DCEP = 1,6 ml. For the 4.00 mm diameter electrode: as received: AC welding = 1,3 ml and DCEP = 1,1 ml (1 sample came out 0,73 ml!!!). After exposure (9 hours in a chamber at 80% humidity at 27C): AC = 1,8 ml and DCEP = 1,1 ml (1 sample came out 0,86 ml!!!). As you can see the results are fantastic and we are very happy. The meaning of this is that nobody needs to wore about hydrogen anymore and even wonder about keep covered electrodes in ovens. Any question, please, let me know.
Interesting results.
Any ideas how you will procede from here? Who is going to mass produce it? If it takes off you'll probably need a manufacturer.
Sounds like you have really hit something for the market. You have the AWS designation and now the test results confirming moisture absorbtion at a very low rate.
But, here is a question: D1.1, Clause 5 doesn't make any allowance currently for an electrode with results such as yours so how long is it going to take to get through committees and get a code change that will accomodate the new electrode ratings? We currently have a 4 hr and a 9 hr. Will they change the testing times and procedures and give you a multiple day rating? It would require an extensive amount of testing to get something with no limits (your statement about not worrying about keeping covered electrodes in ovens).
Just some thoughts about how this may play out even if the electrode is as good as we have all been hoping.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Hello Brent
The factory already exist and the name is ELBRAS. It is here in Brazil but we can do partnership with companies abroad. Regarding to the AWS designation, we really do not know yet. We followed the AWS 5.1 for Specification for Carbon Steel Electrodes for Shielded Metal Arc Welding. There, in item 18, table 11, it is expected 4ml/100gr of deposited metal. Ours is lower than that. We believe AWS must start changing this limits. Regarding to the D1.1, AWS also need to review. With this electrode, since it does not need redrying, there is no need to keep it in ovens, which means waste of money for the companies and users if do so. I hope people at AWS can help us to introduce this new technology. It will save a lot of money for everybode. It will be sale here in Brazil very soon or as soon as we have it certificated.
Thank you Professor. I appreciate the update. Are you going to make any kind of follow up presentation at this year's FabTech in Las Vegas? Would be interesting to see the audience response with the added testing that has now been done. I'll keep my eyes open for an addition to the program.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Brent
I just received a message from Rio (I live in Belo Horizonte, 700 km away) that the Brazilian Welding Foundation approved (homologated) the electrode to be used in Brazil. It was "classified" as H2 and do not need re-drying and be kept in oven. We are very happy with it.
I think I missed the FabTech in Las Vegas. I will check. However, I asked the people that did the homologation to send to me all the samples such that I can upgrade my presentation. I can send it to you and who be interested.
Regards.
You may not be able to do a formal paper presentation but there may be other options. The Las Vegas FabTech is November, the week of the 12th I believe (12-14??).
I intend to send to the emails you posted earlier and ask them to send me some samples. That would be great.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Hi. My name is Ivan Fichel, I am the director of ELBRAS ELETRODOS DO BRASIL LTDA, an electrode manufacturer from Brazil, and I'd like to share some informations.
- ELBRAS' electrode BR H4R has passed testing by the Brazilian Foundation of Welding Technology, FBTS-FUNDAÇÃO BRASILEIRA DE TECNOLOGIA DE SOLDAGEM, and classified as an E7018-1 H4R electrode compliant with AWS 5.1 Standard for no-drying electrodes.
- All the tests were performed by EWI - EDISON WELDING INSTITUTE, Columbus, OH, which found a hydrogen content of 2 mL/100 g of material in 16 measurements (Standard value: 4 mL/100 g).
- Test results and samples are available upon request.
- Testing by ABS-AMERICAN BUREAU OF SHIPPING is currently under way.
- ELBRAS produces electrodes in large scale and supplies PETROBRAS - BRAZILIAN PETROLEUM and other large Brazilian corporations.
- We are interested in divulging this new product and will be demonstrating the electrode at our stand in RIO OIL & GAS 2012, in Rio de Janeiro, Sept. 17-20.
- We are looking for an international distributor.
For further information, please contact me at ivan@elbras.com.br
Best regards, Ivan.
Thank You Ivan, I received the electrodes yesterday. Have you gotten any updates on the current testing of these?
Yes... we have the final results from EWI, please give me your email, thanks, Ivan ( ivan@elbras.com.br ).
hello everybody
for measuring the hydrogen of weld metal I use the A4.3 93 standard.I wanna increase the mercury temperature from 45 to 150 according to standard.Has everybody done this.is it possible?
We are a group of former employess of ESAB Brasil that got together aiming develop, patent and launch a new concept of ELECTRODE E7018/7018-1. After many years of research, we launched the electrode ELBRAS BR H4R, THAT DOESN’T NEED TO BE TO BE (RE)DRIED BEFORE USE, keeping for 2 years a content of H below 4% in a deposited metal. This product does not need to be vacuum-packed and is approved by FBTS / BV / DNV / ABS. For additional information, please watch the video with subtitles in English by typing ELBRAS EM INGLES on youtube. The product has the same price as conventional electrode. If you need sample please let me know . www.elbras.com.br/brh4r / ivan@elbras.com.br.
Elbras,
I am interested in samples of your product. My employer for my day job is headquartered in Brazil and I could run your products here under our WPS' and see how well they do and if they perform well suggest your product to them in South America as well as here. We do a lot of field repairs and hear a lot of stories of our 7018 electrodes being stored in 5 gallon buckets that at times are/were filled with water leading to all kinds of problems. We hve sent them Lincoln Excalibur E7018 to try before as well.
Please contact me at superiorfab@aol.com
-Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan, I sent a email to you, regards,Ivan.
To all members,
In order to know more about the only electrode class E7018/E7018-1 in the market that does not need to be kept in ovens and remains a low H content, access the link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ih9NRCEY5UAsk for a sample and confirm the quality with your own tests!
Hello Elbras;
I read your original posts with interest and to be honest, it was placed on the back burner.
Thanks for bringing it to our attention once again.
Best regards - Al
Thank you for the reply, let me know if you need any further information.
My contact information is listed in my profile. Anything you can send along will be appreciated. Thank you.
Best regards - Al
We are pleased to report that our unresectable electrode ELBRAS E7018 / E7018-1 BR H4R is certified ABS, BV, DNV and FBTS. Regards, Ivan Fichel www.elbras.com.br/brh4r.
Thanks for the update. Glad you have continued all the volumes of work involved to bring this into production. It is quite a process for sure.
Brent
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