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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1 official interpretation
- - By Travis Collins (**) Date 07-03-2012 16:14
I would like to submit a question to the AWS technical committee but am unsure what exactly my letter should contain or how it should be written. Does anyone have a copy of a inquiry that has been submitted so I can use it as a template?  I want to make sure I have everything in there that is needed but dont want to put alot in there that isnt unnecessary.

Or by any chance does anyone know of if an interpretation has ever been made relating to 1/16" undercut in welds under 12" long? Myself and a fellow cwi have been at odds about how to read table 6.1, 7A where it pertains to 1/16" undercut. He reads it as the weld can have 2" in any 12", thus if the weld is under 12" then you can have none. Where as I read it that if you are allowed 2" in any 12" then a 6" weld is allowed 1"

                                                           thanks Travis
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-03-2012 17:54
Follow this link. You may find it helpful.

http://www.aws.org/w/a/technical/interps.html

Al
Parent - By Travis Collins (**) Date 07-03-2012 19:27
Thanks Al, I was unable to find any past interpretations on the subject though. Guess I will just type a request for interpretation and hope I get enough info in it to get this cleared up.

                                                                Thanks again, Travis
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-03-2012 20:17
Don't expect an answer in the immediate future. One inquiry I had took 18 months to get a response and the last inquiry I made is rapidly approaching the 18 month milestone.

Consider having the Engineer, i.e., the Owner's representative, referee this one if your need is immediate.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Travis Collins (**) Date 07-03-2012 20:44
Once again, thanks. Would you mind giving me your opinion on our disagreement? Also do you have any pointers on how the request should be written?

                                              Thanks, Travis
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-04-2012 19:31
Al gave you the information needed for making a request for official interpretation.

As to your situation and a fast resolution, I concur with Al.  That is how my first mentor in application of codes to actual work taught me.  I know of several others in my region who practice the same application as well.  Not that the majority, or a larger number, makes it right.  But suffice it to say there are many who believe that to be the correct interpretation.

Another thing to remember, I don't really have to satisfy another inspector.  My responsibility is to the customer/engineer and the end quality of the job.  Use the RFI process to see how they want it.  Also, most fab shops I have worked in were pretty easy to get along with.  As long as I don't get overboard with "fix that because I don't like it" and can actually show them why and am reasonable on the smaller items, such as your example, they are more than happy to just go ahead and fix it if I say I really don't like it and am uncomfortable with leaving it even though it is 'borderline'. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-04-2012 16:28 Edited 07-04-2012 19:15
I prorate the allowable length of undercut. The actual length of permitted undercut is simply the 2 times the length of the joint divided by 12. So, if the length of the joint is 18 inches, the sum of the lengths of undercut in excess of 1/32 inch, but not more than 1/16 inch would be:

2 x 18/12 = 3 inchs. Keep in mind that the length of undercut in excess of 2 inches cannot be continuous unless the base metal is 1 inch thick or thicker.

or if the length of the joint is 4 inches:

2 x 4/12 = 2/3 or 0.667 inches.

Others may disagree, but that is how I handle the issue.

Regarding how to write a formal inquiry, read annex O (D1.1-2010) and look at several of the interpretations at the web site I listed in the previous response.

The goal of the inspector is to inspect to accept, not to inspect with the intent to reject.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By WeldinFool (**) Date 07-05-2012 15:16
Al says "The goal of the inspector is to inspect to accept, not to inspect with the intent to reject." What a great way to approach our job, I will use this as my personal mantra from now on!!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-05-2012 15:18
I cannot claim to be the oringinator of that phrase. I heard it from someone else. Who, I cannot remember.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-05-2012 18:49
Inexperience and insecurity are the great motivators of the 'intent to reject'.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-05-2012 19:59
And if everyone is on the same page and they start the job correctly with pre-fabrication/erection meetings then many bugs get worked out ahead of time so we actually can inspect with the intention of accepting. 

It's those who mess up the process and cut corners, knowing full well they are no matter what they say, and want us to start our part of the job after the most critical parts have already been completed that give us a bad attitude so we go in expecting and even intending to reject.

But, Al is right, my intention should be the acceptance of quality, code compliant work that will be safe as well as appealing to the eye.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-06-2012 13:14
I know the old adage says that a weld that looks good, usually is good, but remember one thing; There is no criteria for ugly.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-06-2012 13:32
Al the definition of an ugly weld was exhibited and displayed excellently by the plastic weld samples that I had to inspect during the "hands on" portion of my CWI exam almost 13 years ago.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-06-2012 13:55
Very few people would take an opposing view on that assessment of ugly!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-06-2012 19:11
Amen to the plastic weld sample being an excellent example...of UGLY.

Now, you are very right Al and I use that example to welders all the time, The code may not define a Pretty weld nor an Ugly weld but I can tell a lot by looking at a weld and assessing it by pretty or ugly.  Pretty welds don't need more than a glance and measurement for size.  Ugly welds take more time trying to assess rather or not they have overlap, undercut beyond code acceptance, are the correct size, have improper profile, etc.  I can accomplish a lot more in a day looking at pretty welds than I can ugly welds.  And, truly, once a welder knows how to lay a pretty weld, he can accomplish a lot more in a day than he can when he lays ugly welds.  And he won't get as worked up from doing re-work when I/we come by and mark his repairs.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-06-2012 20:34
A cautionary note: some very nice looking welds can hide some very serious problems.

GMAW-S is a great example of "good welds gone bad". They may look pretty, but there may be no fusion beyond the mill scale. Lesson: you have to be there to check the welding parameters.

I have had contractors allow "anyone" to weld the root and intermediate beads and then have their "good" welder "cap" it so that it looked good when the inspector showed up. Lesson: never announce when you would be performing "spot" inspections.

I have had welders wrap the weld around the end of the web stiffeners so the excessive root opening was concealed. Lesson: be there to check fit-up or at least use a bent wire to check for root opening at the clipped corner. When most of the stiffeners are not welded around the free end, grind a couple the "wrap-around" to check for excessive root openings.

I have seen welders use low hydrogen electrodes straight from the electrode holding oven only to discover the oven was unplugged so they wouldn't waste electricity.  Lesson: Always check the temperature of holding ovens.

The list of things that could make "good welds go bad" is endless. Most seasoned inspectors can easily add a dozen additional suspect practices they have seen.

That's what keeps our work interesting. Trust everyone, but always verify. A naive inspector is the contractor’s best friend. Don’t be a naïve inspector.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-07-2012 00:28
Some great trade secrets there Al.  The idea about the bent wire to check the back side of the fit up got my attention. 

Several of the others have to do with why periodic inspections can be a pain and also why when doing TPI work on site most of the time we need to be out on the floor doing our job and not sitting in the office waiting for the floor leadman to come tell us they have some members ready to be signed off.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-07-2012 02:46
I once had a contractor write a 17-page letter to my client complaining that I spent too much time on the production floor, blah, blah, blah.

My client, a DOT for a state south of the Mason Dixon called me and said, "Whatever you are doing, keep doing it. This letter from the contractor says you'r doing just exactly what we're paying you to do!"

The president of the company forbid me to be on the production floor unless his QC manager was with me. I started at 7:30 AM and finished 4:30 PM like clock work. Then the president complained that I wouldn't let his man get any work done. Sometimes there's just no making friends.

My client said, "Keep doing what you've been doing." and that just what I did.

You just gotta lovem.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1 official interpretation

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