I was curious if any of you have had any problems with documents that have been stamped with your CWI stamp that has the experation date after the date has passed?
My expires at the end of next month, and I have re-newed my CWI so I have the new stamp with the new date.
My concern is that GC's, Architects and others who may not be in the know, will be rejecting any documents that have an older stamp with a date after it has expired.
The last thing I need is to have someone say; "well this welders certification is no good becasue the stamp is past it's date" and then they want me to re-do all my paperwork to put a new date on it. Yes I know the stamp is not a requirement for a welders cert or even a WPS, but Iv'e found it good practise to add some authority to the documents.
Just curious if this has happenend to anyone.
I agree 100%.
Attaching expiration dates to stamps is a poor idea.
I've been using my old stamp that has no exp. date on it to get by.
Now that my cert has changed, that'll no longer work.
Tim
It may depend a lot on the customer and what their contract says. When I was an auditor looking at welding documents for offshore oil rigs we had a 7 year limit but used to let 10 years or less slip by. In other words, the PQR's had to be done within the last 7 years. It was not a code requirement but it was stated in the customer specifications for welding.
Steve
The important issue is whether the stamp was valid when it was applied. In other words, when a contract states that the inspector must be currently certified to QC1, the stamp holder must have a valid stamp when it is applied to the document.
If that wasn't the case, every drawing, every contract, every notorized paper would become invalid as soon as the commission of the individual that applied the stamp/seal either dies or is no longer certified or registered. That isn't the case with an engineer, notary of public, or any other registered or licenced individual.
The question in short is whether the individual was certified when the stamp was applied. That is the reason why the new AWS issued stamps have an expiration date.
Only CWI/SCWIs that are currently certified are authorized to use the AWS issued stamped. Once the certification expires, the CWI/SCWI is not authorized to use the AWS issued stamp (with or without the expiration date).
Old CWI stamps without the expiration date are no longer valid. Any paperwork issued in the last several years with a CWI stamp that has no expiration date is not valid and not acceptable when the contract states a current CWI certification is required. Inspection reports, welder performance qualification records, etc. can be invalidated by using a stamp that has no expiration date.
Anyone that is still using an AWS issued CWI stamp that has no expiration date is leaving himself open to problems on several fronts.
Recently I made a recommended to the Engineer that "new" welder performance test records with old stamps on them be rejected because there is no way to determine if the CWI was certified when the tests were administered. To say the contractor was unhappy would be an understatement. To say the CWI was embarrassed would be an understatement. The welders he qualified had to be retested and new paperwork issued. The welders were retested on the job site and I was present to make sure the tests were performed. The original CWI was present to witness and to perform the destructive tests. All in all, not a very happy scene.
Best regards - Al
To continue on Eekpods train of thought ( I think),
Certs, even when administered by an independent testing agency, don't have to be stamped by a CWI. And, while a lot of construction documents specify an outside agency, it is totally ligit for a company to certify their welders to D1.1 and not have an in house CWI and no stamp on the certs.
I realize that your statement probably included the fact that the governing documents for the job at hand required an outside agency to have done the original certifications. But if agencies don't have to have an actual CWI do the testing and the codes don't require a stamp on the documents, how do we justify rejecting a cert because the CWI stamp is an older one with no date on it? At least the guy WAS a CWI and had passed testing at one time which is more than we can say for some working at testing labs.
Now, this may not be the case with AWS Approved Testing Facilities. But as long as a company submits the right kind of QC documents and has the right kind of in house procedures they can be a testing lab that welders can get "Certified" through. Do we need to change the whole system as well as some of the wording in the D1.1 and other codes?
Have a Great Day, Brent
edit: interesting, it put my response before Chris's. Anyway, you'll get the idea.
Mine is easy...I've never let it lapse since I tested back in March of 2000. I have every renewal record and all of the old certificates to show continuity from the original test date forward. The expiration date seems like a problem that someone will to have to explain when reviewing records out past the expiration date even though the CWI could still be current. Every company that I have ever done any CWI work for has copies in their files of every one of my certifications during the period of time that the work was being done. It's as easy as pulling that piece of paper out of the file for the reviewing auditor regardless if I have kept my stuff current to date, that time period when the work was done is still documented. Placing an expiration date on a document is nothing but a confusing point for an outside auditor to consider.
I understand that as far as our CWI credentials for doing inspections John. The main point here from Chris' OP has been rather a company's customer, an engineer, a potential customer has ever rejected a welder's cert or a WPS because the stamp that is on the documents has passed the date when that particular stamp/certification term expired. And as one of my examples with the welder who was told his certs had expired, it wasn't his certs since by code he was still good, the stamp date on the CWI's expiration was past so the person looking at the welder's certs said he was expired. And it doesn't matter rather the CWI renewed or not. The stamp date for the CWI's effective term had passed so the certs were expired as far as that potential customer was concerned.
I'm beginning to think I like the stamps with no dates on them better. Why? I can be an approved inspector without being a current CWI or not even ever having been one. I can certify my own welders without being a CWI. I can write WPS's without being a CWI. A welder's certs don't expire as long as he meets continuity requirements (unless a customer things the certifying CWI stamp date makes the welder himself loose his skills). ETC, ETC, ETC. Why did AWS opt to put the CWI's term expiration on the stamp. Anyone with any knowledge of the system would know that was possible by looking at the number and seeing how long previously he had been tested and passed.
Look at it this way...I certify this month to D1.1 with SMAW 7018 all position 3&4G. Next month, the CWI who tested me and stamped my papers hits his three year renewal and his current stamp expires. Rather he renews or not doesn't matter to a company looking at a man's certification papers. They see an expiration date and say.. NO GOOD, IT EXPIRED. Wait a minute. I just tested and passed last month. Well.. Look at your papers, they say they expired this month.
Thus, the basis for the question/concern Chris had and a true experience I had with a welder who was refused a field job for his own company because his 1 year old certs had expired according to the stamp on them that actually said the CWI's term had expired. It was good when he tested and stamped the papers. So, if you only have a year left before you must renew you better not certify any welders or stamp any papers or you will have a bunch of mad customers because they have to renew their certs/WPS's in a short amount of time costing them more money than their buddy who found a CWI will a full three years before his stamp date comes up for expiration.
Did I make any sense? Or did you understand in the first place but were referring more to Superflux's post, though you replied to mine? Oh well, clear as mud I guess.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Would it be safe to say that if a document was stamped by a current CWI, with an exp date on the stamp, and the issue date on the document is prior to the CWI cert expiration, the document would be acceptable even after the stamp exp had expired?
Tim
Tim,
It should be as far as I am concerned. And I believe that is the bottom line of the OP. The problem becomes those who don't understand the process being responsible within some agency and making declarations of 'Expired' that have no basis in fact.
Mine is just one such occassion. I'm sure there are others. And that is what Chris was asking, rather any of us had encountered such an interpretation.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Where In D1.1 does it require a CWI to certify the welders qualification/certification document? I think a call as you related in the last paragraph is unrelistic and for a qualified inspector to sugggest such is out of his scope. First substantiate your call, to unduly impose a cost on a contractor for such a thing is uncalled for. As long as the Qualifier/Inspector is a duly appointed individual for the contractor he need not even be a CWI.
Help me understand your call??
Chris,
I posted on this once a while back, don't remember rather it was my own thread or someone else's. Anyway, I had a welder come to me and wanted to be RE- certified. I started asking him some questions about when he had gotten certified. Who certified him? What company he was working for (it was for himself as a subcontractor welder)? And finally, who said his cert wasn't any good?
Turns out someone rejected his papers as qualifying him for a job because he was past the expiration date. I said 'What expiration date?' He said 'Well there is one on my papers they gave me and I am past it. He went out to his truck and brought me in his cert papers. The date was the CWI's expiration date on the CWI's stamp. I started laughing so hard I had tears in my eyes.
Simple answer to your question: Yes, I have experienced a problem with the dates on the stamp. It wasn't mine, it wasn't me. But I was a first hand participant in getting it straight.
People who don't know shouldn't be examining submittals for job requirements. But then, I had a bad experience with an Engineer's rep who checked out some WPS's I had written once too. He has never been allowed to review any of my paperwork ever since. The engineer just signs off on them.
We will never eliminate ignorance and pride. Some people consider themselves experts in an ever changing field they have no proper training in. All we can do is try and know that the rejections will happen from time to time and will cost someone a possible job or the expense of re-doing certs and/or WPS's.
Al, thanks for the tip about the old stamp not being acceptable if the date on the papers is newer than when those were good. I've heard others, here on the forum and out here in AZ, say they use their old one because it doesn't have a date and they don't have to worry about it. OOOPPPSSS. Wrong evaluation. I'll be passing the word.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Al you said
"Recently I made a recommended to the Engineer that "new" welder performance test records with old stamps on them be rejected because there is no way to determine if the CWI was certified when the tests were administered."
I can understand your point that you could not confirm that at that time when the documents were created and stamped; that the CWI stamping the documents was a current valid CWI. But what if the documents did not have a stamp? (because generally a stamp is not always required on some projects) you would still have the same situation; you can't verify back in time if a person was or was not a valid CWI.
I could understand the fabricator getting very worked up. I would feel the same way, and that would be my worst nightmare and cause me great frustration.
Just my opinion.
eekpod,
"you can't verify back in time if a person was or was not a valid CWI."
It might be worth a call or email to Miami.
I don't know how far back AWS keeps records on the CWI, but I know for a fact that they can produce CWI numbers back to 1986.
In 2009 after I received my (last/latest, 3rd) CWI, I called them them up and in a matter of seconds they were able to give me my CWI #s from 1986 and 1998. This was for me documenting my Inspection career for some high security project. Not sure what AWS' policy is for providing this information to 2nd parties, but if they were to release it, the number is encoded with the issue date and you would know that the Inspector in question was good for 3 years after that date.
Now to the original dilemma. If this became an issue with GC's or any auditing entity, it seems you should be allowed to re-stamp (double stamp?) any documents and provide them with full compliance and continuity.
So now the CWI as well as the welder would have to provide proof of continuity? But the welder is still certified even if you retire and let it go so why should you have to? Along with some of the other comparisons in other posts here, if the pastor who performed my wedding dies or retires do I have to go get married again to make our union legal? I think not.
Continuity for the inspector is not a consideration as far as I am concerned when it comes to rather a welder's cert papers are still good. The only consideration is the other line of thought here as far as rather a CWI is using a proper stamp to 'officialize' the papers.
Just my two tin pennies worth.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Anyone, other than a CAWI, can qualify a welder.
There is no code requirement in D1.1 that the individual administering the welder performance test be a CWI or a SCWI.
However, only an individual that is currently certified by AWS, i.e., paid the necessary fees to AWS and meets the qualification requirements, is authorized to apply the AWS issued CWI/SCWI stamp to any document. Once an individual's certification has expired, he/she is no longer certified by the AWS and they are no longer authorized to use the AWS issued stamp. It is exactly for that reason the expiration date is now on the stamp, so one can ascertain the individual was a current CWI when the paperwork is signed and stamped as a CWI or as a SCWI.
If a CWI/SCWI certification has expired, there is nothing preventing the individual from qualifying a welder or performing the functions of a welding inspector, sweeping the shop floor, or trimming trees, but he/she is no longer authorized call himself/herself a CWI or a SCWI or use the AWS issued CWI/SCWI stamp.
It is no different for someone driving an automobile with an expired driver's license. It is no different for an engineer who has allowed his/her professional registration to lapse; it is no different for a doctor that has given up his license to practice. In each of the situations the individual is no longer authorized to continue with the activity.
The use of the CWI/SCWI stamp by someone that is no longer certified is fraud, a misrepresentation of their current status, a misrepresentation of their credentials. A document signed and stamped by an individual with a stamp that is not current when the document was signed is misrepresenting his or her credentials. To knowingly accept a document signed by an individual that is no longer a CWI or SCWI, yet who continues to use the AWS issued stamp, is a participant in fraudulent activity. It is no different than accepting a document that is signed by a Notary of Public who commission has expired. Whether or not the project requires a CWI or SCWI is simply not relevant to the issue of misusing the AWS issued stamp.
It isn't a case of continuity, it is a question of whether or not the individual that applied the CWI/SCWI stamp was in fact a CWI or SCWI at the time they signed the paperwork.
We can send our children to school, but sometimes there simply is no cure for stupid. Anyone that looks at a welder performance test record and can't tell whether the expiration date applies to the test record or the inspector's certification falls in the category of the latter. It ain't rocket science.
Best regards - Al
