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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Understand ASME P&PVC Section IX in a Simple Way~
- - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-20-2012 12:08
Dear All,

Section IX is all about Statistical Quality Control.

Feel free to discuss.

Jovi
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-20-2012 15:00
Or not.
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-21-2012 00:52
It is all about the control of process variables when you want to assure the process output.

Same concept goes with Section I, III, VIII, etc. for QC system audit (Authorization Certificate), Section V for NDE,.....

Consider a QC system of a stamp holder, a welding procedure, a welder, an operator, an NDE procedure, and NDE inspector.......as "process" to transfer "input" into "output".

You want to assure the quality (desired output) of a process, you need to care about the variables.

Refer to ASM Handbook, Volumn 17, Statistical Quality Design and Control or ISO900X.

Quota:
"
A MAJOR REVOLUTION in the industrial sector has been taking place in America during the 1980s as manufacturers
strive to regain the competitive position they once held in the world marketplace. One element of this revolution has
centered around a renewed emphasis on quality, with an approach aimed at preventing defective materials from being
manufactured through improved process monitoring and diagnosis and at designing quality into the product from the very
beginning. The concepts and methods of Deming and others have had a profound impact on the way quality is viewed
from the manufacturing/process perspective. The simple but powerful statistical methods for process control developed by
Shewhart some time ago have been successfully revived and applied on a very broad basis. In the engineering design
arena, the methods of Taguchi, referred to as off-line quality control, have been successfully used for more than 30 years
to provide a sound basis for improved product/process design. From the total system point of view, the concept of
company-wide quality control, which has been practiced in Japan for some time, is now receiving considerable attention.
In particular, recent emphasis has been placed on quality function deployment as a means to transmit customer needs
through the organization both vertically and horizontally.
The work of Shewhart in the 1920s led to a sound approach to the scrutiny of process variation and the diagnosis and
removal of process faults. However, the statistical approach to the sampling of process output prior to shipping to
determine the extent to which it conformed to specifications dominated the quality field from the 1930s through the
1970s. Unfortunately, it has only recently been recognized that this product control approach to quality control
contributes little to the enhancement of competitive position. The recognition that quality and productivity can move
together in the right direction only when the process is evaluated, finding the root cause of process faults and taking
action to remove them, is today reshaping the meaning and intent of quality control.
The dramatic change in the meaning and application of quality control as a discipline has both a philosophical and an
analytical side. These two aspects of the problem must be understood together. This article will present some fundamental
elements of statistical thinking and methods for quality design and control. Commonly used techniques employing control
charts and the design of experiments are discussed with illustrations.
"
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-21-2012 06:43
Good luck Jovi.

Had you said B31.3 is about statistical control I may have agreed.
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-21-2012 10:47
Jon,

I'm not familiar with B31.3 field but B31.1 is part of my area.

Let's consider a PP stamp holder as a "process" and its "output" is the quality products meeting or exceeding B31.1 requirement.

What are the "essential variables" of this process?????

We will find answers listed on MANDATORY APPENDIX J - QUALITY CONTROL REQUIREMENTS FOR BOILER EXTERNAL PIPING (BEP), i.e.:

J-1.2.1 Authority and Responsibility.
J-1.2.2 Organization.
J-1.2.3 Drawings, Design Calculations, and Specification Control.
J-1.2.4 Material Control.
J-1.2.5 Examination and Inspection Program.
J-1.2.6 Correction of Nonconformities.
J-1.2.7 Welding.
J-1.2.8 Nondestructive Examination.
J-1.2.9 Heat Treatment.
J-1.2.10 Calibration of Measurement and Test Equipment.
J-1.2.11 Records Retention.
J-1.2.12 Sample Forms.
J-1.2.13 Inspection of Boilers and Boiler Parts.
J-1.2.14 Inspection of Safety and Safety Relief Valves.

I'm not sure but I assume B31.3 has the same concept. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Jovi
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 08-21-2012 13:55
I think we all agree it is all about controlling processes, but when you initially added the word "statistical"... I immediately think of collecting and data analysis, developing control charts, and defining control limits.  How do apply statistical controls, or calculate a Standard Deviation for "Authority and Responsibility"?
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-21-2012 14:47
Bill,

You hit it. The understanding of the word "statistical" was the very reason I made this post.

At first when I glanced it I thought of the same as you immediately did. But later I realized that the statistical thinking and methods for quality improvement are never limited within "collecting and data analysis, developing control charts, and defining control limits".

Let me quote the following from ASM Metals HandBook Volume 17, Statistical Quality Design and Control

"
Quality and Productivity Fundamentals

Dr. W. Edwards Deming is the man largely responsible for bringing statistical thinking and methods for quality
improvement to Japan after World War II. An eminent statistician in America during the 1930s and 1940s, Deming was
one of the men in the forefront of the statistical quality control scene during World War II. After the war, Deming's
philosophies and teachings fell on the deaf ears of American management, and the quality effort fires that burned so
brightly during the war years slowly went out. However, the Japanese became aware of Deming's work and invited him to
Japan, where he met with and caught the attention of top management.

When Deming first traveled to Japan in the late 1940s, he found a climate that was quite conducive to the promotion of
his concepts and methods. On the one hand, Japan appeared to have a solid base of statistical expertise, although its
energies had been directed primarily toward mathematical theory and the application of that theory in nonmanufacturing
environments such as agriculture. On the other hand, Deming found an industrial leadership base in Japan very eager to
listen to what he had to say. With the lessons learned from his experience in attempting to promote quality improvement
in America, Deming's first order of business when he arrived in Japan was to conduct a series of top management training
seminars in which he laid out what needed to be done to place quality improvement on an institutional basis within any
organization. The obligations and responsibilities of management that he spelled out in these seminars came to be known
as his Fourteen Points for management.

Perhaps it is the combination of upper management perspective and a firmly rooted background in mathematical statistics
that has enabled Deming to sustain his efforts in a leadership position over more than 50 years. He has been able to tell
management what they ought to do and then to provide the rigorous analytical tools and methods needed to carry out his
directions. His teachings are heavily oriented toward the use of statistical thinking and methods to identify opportunities
for quality and productivity improvement. Deming has developed a road map for management to follow to enhance
competitive position over the long run. This road map, referred to as his Fourteen Points (management's obligations), is
summarized below. It should be noted that in the spirit of his Fourteen Points, Deming continues to this day to refine and
improve these tenets. As a result they themselves are continually changing. An excellent discussion of Deming's Fourteen
Points is provided in Ref 1. Deming's Fourteen Points are listed below:

· Create constancy of purpose for the improvement of product or service
· Adopt the new philosophy of process control and variation reduction
· Cease dependence on mass inspection for quality control
· End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price
· Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service in order to improve quality and productivity and thus continuously decrease costs
· Institute thorough and better job-related trainings
· Institutionalize leaderships
· Drive out fears, so that everyone may work effectively for the company
· Break down barriers between departments
· Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the workforce that ask for zero defects and new levels of productivity
· Eliminate work standards on the factory floor
· Remove the barriers that rob employees at all levels in the company of their right to pride of workmanship
· Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement
· Put everybody in the organization to work to accomplish the transformation

The Fourteen Points are clearly the responsibility of management. They define the essential elements of the
institutionalization of quality and productivity improvement through statistical thinking and methods. Other pioneers in
quality planning and management include Dr. J.M. Juran (Ref 2) and Dr. A.V. Feigenbaum (Ref 3).

"

Now do you agree that "Authority and Responsibility" is a part of statistical thinking for quality management?

Thanks,

Jovi
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 08-21-2012 16:34
"The understanding of the word "statistical" was the very reason I made this post."

"Now do you agree that": ∆p∙∆q~h ?
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 08-21-2012 17:53
Statistical as in numerical?  Yes, as are all codes and standards.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-21-2012 18:56
Probably just me being stupid, which wouldn't be an out of normal experience...

Fluffy words copied from text books doesn't necessarily mean one understands.  Carry on Grasshopper.... when you can grasp the pebble from my hand...
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-22-2012 05:50
Something smells funky in this thread...

What can it possibly be???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 08-22-2012 07:28
It's not me this time Henry!:grin:
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-22-2012 20:49 Edited 08-22-2012 21:04
:eek::razz::roll::twisted::yell::wink::cool:

ROTFLMFAO!!! I know it's not you so relax.

As always, you're spot on J and I have to say that I believe it's a combination of different cultures where the definitions tend to get thrown out of proportion leading to absolute confusion as to the intent of the OP...

Dale Carnegie courses are great management as well as leadership courses but,when someone has a hard time expressing in writing what they relate to in the content with code interpretation then I just have to wonder where the fire, is and what in the heck did they throw into it so that it smells so funky.:confused::roll::confused:

Brent mentioned that this initial post might have been better suited for the management section and I think that it could go there or it is could go into the inspection section also...

The problem with choosing the appropriate section to post is the OP also is having a hard time deciding what avenue he wants to drive on with the content.:eek::confused::roll::sad::yell::razz:

That's as far as I'll go for now... 

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-22-2012 10:56
Henry,
The biggest problem I see is that the title of the thread as 'simple' is not manifest in the body of the posts.
Not to mention that it is a rather far left field subject matter.
I have to question the motivation.
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-22-2012 12:32
js55 and all,

It's a hot thread, isn't it?

Just wanted to share some thoughts and be open to hear thoughts of others. My motivation was nothing but passion and curiosity of learning.

The world itself was originally of no words or numbers. We created the words and numbers to understand the world other than to trap ourselves by what we created.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-22-2012 13:52
Jovi,

First, I would like to welcome you to the forum.

Second, I have also stayed away as this seemed a strange thread. 

Now, there have been some interesting comments as well as quotes.  I personally would like to see more personal opinion and experience instead of so much quoting of resources.  Granted, the study of the resource was what sparked the interest in the topic and desire to share that with others. 

Now, perhaps one other observation, this may have been better suited for the 'Management' section of the forum as, as you pointed out, the scope of this topic tends to be more a management issue.  Not that some here would have kept away from it.  But it may have been more noticed by some who may only look at areas they see as appropriate to them.

Your original post here just didn't strike a chord with many and is not necessarily up our ladder of interest in areas of study. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-22-2012 15:17
Brent,

Thanks for your post. I didn't plan anything or try to trap anyone with this post and I must confess that my thoughts ran just kind of "out of control".

I can share a circumstance I came across recently. A batch of SMAW electrodes were made with wrong core metal and spreaded to the product welds with traceability lost. We qualified a specific WPS for these wrong sticks and the client didn't accept at the beginning and questioned that the A No. (QW-404.5), an essential variable, could not be determined in Table QW-442 of Section IX due to the weird composition of the electrodes. We persuaded the client with the interpretation of QW-404.5, i.e., "In lieu of an A-Number designation, the nominal chemical composition of the weld deposit shall be indicated on the WPS and on the PQR." and by explaining that the purpose of A No. is to reduce the number of procedure qualification and from a statistical process control point, keeping a variable of a qualified procedure unchanged is never wrong.

Just feel that sometime someone care too much about the wording of code books "superficially" or try too hard on seeking what to fill each blank of the Suggested Format of WPS (QW-482)/PQR(QW-483) without understanding the essential of process control.

I'm not sure if this is a valuable experience for you or others before I come up with another one.

You may say "not again" but I would like to quote words of Chauncey Starr:

"I believed then, as I do now, that some of the most fruitful frontiers of engineering are interdisciplinary… "

It would never be good for us to see that one majors in "Management" knows little about process control or one good at process control lacks knowledge of management.

Actually I believe Deming's 14 points above was not taking about management but leadership. The management myth holds that leading and managing are the same thing. However, leadership is about influence people, while management is about maintaining system and process.

If anyone feel this thread is a waste of time then he is welcome to save his own.

Thanks,

Jovi
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-22-2012 16:16
Now, with that added experience and some of your other thoughts I can see more application for other components of this thread.  It's just that for the most part we are more used to getting direct questions that are usually code related in some way.  That doesn't make this a bad thread, just different.

I also understand, as a CWI and also a welding fab shop owner, the difference between leadership and management.  In all aspects of life there are leaders who are not managers and visa versa.  At the same time some have natural skills that others must really work at developing and using.

Would you not agree that good managers are natural leaders?  But, not all leaders will become managers? 

Oh, for the most part, anyone who feels this is a WASTE of time will just disappear or never post here in the first place.  Part of the reason some of us were waiting to see what you were actually asking/discussing before we offered any comments at all.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 08-23-2012 18:50
While i cannot quote words of Chauncey Starr....I can quote Bart Starr:

If you work harder than somebody else, chances are you'll beat him though he has more talent than you.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-24-2012 15:18
Good old Bart.  As a young many he was my first football hero.  Went over to my Grandfather's on Superbowl Sunday and watched him take the Packers to a victory. 

But, after that, it was Dallas for years.  Roger was quite a quarterback as well.

Anyway, great quote Bill.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-25-2012 00:43
:cool:
Now I realize that I should have made this thread more popular if I titled it as :"Understand ASME B&PVC Section IX in a Football Way."

Thanks for all your posts. You make this forum attractive.

Have a nice weekend.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-25-2012 00:54
:lol: ROFLOL :lol:

Okay, sorry for the hijack.

But how about my questions?  Leadership vs. management.  Your opinion?

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-25-2012 01:36
Yes, Brent. I agree with your opinion.

It is like "a group of producers cutting their way through the jungle with machetes."

You need someone who climbs the tallest tree to see the right direction, also you need someone good at doing machete works. And it's better you have someone who can do the both.

From your opinion I see you know the both and it's not surprising that you can be a good owner of your shop. Wish you and yours success.

BTW, your boy was so cute with that welding apron. My father used to be a welder too.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-25-2012 08:36
Jovi; Deming is most certainly a "God" that all modern quality people worship (for good reason).

That said, I'm sorry to say I believe you have "missed the boat" with your post that ASME IX is a statistical document...
Parent - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 08-25-2012 13:08 Edited 10-10-2012 07:24
Jon,:cool:

No need to apologize. I was not 100% sure about my understanding when I posted this thread and what I wanted were discussion and ideas from others.

I'm grateful to either your correction of my wrong thoughts or confirmation of my right ones.
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 09-18-2012 00:00
Since Section IX only addresses procedure and performance qualifications, and not production quality, I would say it has nothing to do with "statistical quality control". With regard to qualifications, it has more in common with total quality control.
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