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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Flashback propagation through the hose
- - By devo (***) Date 08-29-2012 18:21
How exactly does flashback travel through the hose and into the cylinder?  I'm talking about no arrestors in the system.  If the hose has pure acetylene in it, then there is no oxygen, ergo no fire.  Is it the pressure exceeding the 30 psi limit?  I remember a time I let a piece of hot steel fall and slice/ignite the hose set.  It made an impressive fireball, but it didn't burn back to the cylinder.  So what is the mechanism for flashback to reach the cylinder?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-29-2012 19:57
I have also seen video of Acetylene bottles with the bottom plug blown, burning but not exploding.

I think an explosion in the tank would come with a combination of flashback and reverse flow of oxygen.
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 08-29-2012 20:59
Unlike oxygen cylinders, acetylene cylinders do not have burst plugs.  Instead, they use metal plugs that melt in the event of a fire (they can actually melt under boiling water, which is why you shouldn't use boiling water to warm up an acetylene cylinder).

A common cause of flashbacks, is when the tip of a cutting torch gets clogged with debris.  Since the oxygen pressure is far greater than the acetylene, oxygen can flow to the clogged tip, then back up the mixer, and down the acetylene hose.  Check valves help to prevent this.  Flashback arrestors are just an extra layer of protection beyond that.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-29-2012 22:03
A little off subject but I got a 125cf bottle the other day and put it on the truck.  The bottle pressure was over 300PSI !!:eek:  I have slept since the last bottle change but I seem to remember a full 125 bottle coming in around 160-170psi.  It was not hot either, in the shade in the low eighties.  Whereabouts is the danger point with acetylene getting unstable under pressure (even with acetone)....I read something about that somewhere.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 08-30-2012 18:06
Maybe I should be more specific...I'm aware of the cause of flashback in the torch, but I have read anecdotal reports of the flashback getting all the way to the cylinder.  It was reported that the cylinder quickly got warm to the touch and was vibrating, "humming" in a sense.  Soon after, maybe ten minutes, and the cylinder exploded, leveling the building it was in.  Is this a bogus tale, or is there some other reaction at work that can cause an acetylene cylinder to explode?
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 08-30-2012 18:23
found it........ Here's a quote from a British report...

"The occurrence of a decomposition is highly stochastic and unpredictable. It may be
initiated internally by a spark or small flame or externally by a mechanical shock or as a
result of external heating. In general it requires that a critical volume of the gas must be
raised to a temperature above 400°C. It may also occur spontaneously as a result of ingress
of a small amount of oxygen into the cylinder."
 
So I guess it's the heat of the flashback that gets to the cylinder that initiates the decomposition...The full report can be found here What to do with Acetylene cylinders that are involved in a fire
  Interestingly, some European agencies recommend shooting holes in the cylinders to reduce explosion risk.  Fun!!!
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 08-30-2012 19:33
Great link!  Looks like I was writing my reply at the same time as you.  Yes, that sums it all up.
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 08-30-2012 18:41
I've read the same reports.  They're in lots of safety literature, not always with attribution.
I'm just going to assume that the anecdotes are true, and at that point, I have to think about what caused it.
I see two possibilities.

First, that oxygen had been forced all the way back into the acetylene cylinder.  This is pretty unlikely, as it would have to get past the regulator, and in any case, the oxygen regulator pressure will be lower than the acetylene tank pressure (unless the oxygen regulator failed, and even then, I think that the burst of high pressure oxygen would burst a hose before it was able to force its way past the regulator).  I don't think this is it, but it certainly could accelerate a flashback, back along the hoses, up to the acetylene regulator.

Second, that the acetylene has been driven to decompose by the energy of the flashback.  My guess is that the pressure wave of the flashback starts off this reaction.  The solvent and packing of the acetylene cylinder are there to prevent this, but give enough energy, decomposition can start, and since it is an exothermic reaction, once started, it will want to run away to the point of explosion.  This happens all without oxygen present.  Yeah, acetylene is capable of some bad things (and this is the tip of the iceberg; acetylene in copper pipes can be much worse).
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-31-2012 02:42
I have read cautions about acetylene and copper, including a maximum copper % for brass & bronze used in acetylene service.

I guess the acetylene isn't in contact with copper torch tips long enough for anything to happen.
Parent - By devo (***) Date 08-31-2012 10:30
If I recall correctly, the maximum copper content is 68% for safe usage in acetylene service.  The torch tips fall below that threshold. Here's a link that explains it a bit more
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Flashback propagation through the hose

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