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Up Topic Welding Industry / Processes / Pre-Installation Testing Question
- - By FabsForLife (*) Date 09-07-2012 13:57
Has anyone ran into this situation?......
This week at our shop we had our AISC audit and the auditor wanted to observe our pre-installation procedure (which is normal). Well when when I brought the bolt to "snug-tight" on an 3/4" A325 bolt read about 7 kips. The auditor insisted I back the nut down to 1 kip and attempt to remove the nut with my fingers. I figured I knew where this was going but I humored him any how. He suggested (kind of demanded) we change our procedure to reflect 1 kip being our initial "snug-tight" condition. So I asked him where in the code book can I find 1 kip as the standard for S-T. He began to quote 8.1 of the 09' RCSC for the new S-T definition about not being able to remove the nut without the use of a wrench and 1 kip is a good starting point.

I flat out do not agree... IMHO S-T will be what ever it takes to draw the ply's together firmly weather its 1 kip or 10 kips. The code book should not try to be so politically correct.

After all that he begins to quote 7.1 (2) and then demands our pre-installation testing be conducted by our fitters because the wording stated "the bolting crew". Now when I was in the field the "bolting crew" did all the testing, but I don't understand why the fitters need to do it in the shop. All our fitters know to bring bolts to S-T prior to tentioning and its not like were going to go around the shop and give everyone a turn (no pun intended) to verify they all know what they're doing.

Has anyone else dealt with this from an auditor or is this guy peculiar.... or is this what all you guys are already doing and we've been doing it wrong for the past 10 years and all the other auditors just overlooked this. I appreciate all the input. Thanks.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 09-07-2012 14:16
I agree with your first part but disagree with the second.

There is no maximum tightness for snug tight, it might be 1 kip, it might be 10 kips, whatever brings the plies into firm contact.  I don't agree him making you loosen the bolt or more importantly change your written procedure.

As far as the bolting crew aka shop personnel.  Technically yes it should be perofrmed by the guys installing the bolts, so they should be doing the test in the skidmore with the auditor.  Generally that's not how it's done, it's always been me doing it but I have heard of other guys getting the same thing and I can understand why.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-08-2012 04:08
There is no "initial snug-tight".  You insert the bolt and put the nut on by hand.  Then, after all bolts are in and the structure is racked and plumbed you lightly tighten (not to snug tight) to bring the faying surfaces into contact.  THEN, you go back through and bring each one to the snug-tight condition.  Normally going through twice incase the tightening of the successive bolts makes the first one loose. 

Now, you did not describe in detail how you brought the bolt to snug-tight for the auditor.  It should have followed a similar pattern to that above of tightening in stages.  And that should be your written procedure for any personel to follow rather shop or field.  You cannot stick a nut on and instantly tighten to snug-tight with the wrenches having gone from loose to snug tight all in one motion.  All bolts in the connection need to be brought through the procedure in stages.  Yes, it is stated that way in AISC/RCSC.  I don't remember any changes altering that in the 14th ed.  No, I don't have my last and current editions with me to quote the procedure.  I will be back home this weekend from a trip to OR and can look it up. 

Why are you using a tension calibrator to check the pressure, even for an auditor, for a snug-tight connection?  If he wants to see a pre-installation procedure, grab 3 bolts and a couple of plates with 3 holes in them.  Stick the bolts in, put the nuts on, lightly tighten to assure entire faying surfaces are in contact, then snug-tighten.  DONE.  That demonstrates your procedure according to your written policy.  There is no Pre-Tension testing required for Snug Tight, unless you called it out in your procedure.  So why would you show an auditor a procedure using a testor?  And, so far I have not noticed that the 14th ed added such changes to the tightening procedure in such a way that it actually calls out a kip value for bringing them into faying contact.  I'll have to check on that for sure. 

If your bolting is all done to only a snug enough fit to allow for shipping at the shop and then finalized in the field by the erection crew then I totally agree with the field crew proving training, knowledge, and experience in completing their tasks.  No reason for the shop to.  Maybe a change in wording there so the responsibilities are divided and clear. 

Now you have me wondering if I have missed something in the new edition.  I can't wait to get home and grab my books and see. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-08-2012 11:07 Edited 09-10-2012 17:50
I just looked it up in RCSC and the Definition for snug-tight has changed from previous years in the way it reads.(edited my spelling)

Definition of snug tight per RCSC(page 16.2-xi 14th ed. AISC Manual of Steel Construction):
"A joint in which the bolts have been installed in accordance with Section 8.1. Snug Tight is the condition that exists when all of the plies in a connection have been pulled into firm contact by the bolts in the joint and all of the bolts in the joint have been tightened sufficiently to prevent the removal of the nuts without the use of a wrench."

First thing was to go check out RCSC Section 8.1 (on page 16.2-51) of the 14th ed. AISC Manual of Steel Construction, and nowhere in Section 8.1 does it mention the value of 1kip, even the Commentary (on page 16.2-51) on this Section reads like the old definition of snug tight. I see no mention of any tension values anywhere regarding snug tight. I would note this in my reply to the AISC during your challenge of any non-conformances or CARs regarding this bolting procedure.

The auditor may personally like to use or suggest using the value of 1kip, but no where does RCSC mention this regarding acheiving snug tight.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 09-08-2012 16:18
Sometimes a discussion as to what "firm contact" means will come up when I do bolt inspections.  Firm contact is defined as, "the condition that exists on a faying surface when the plies are solidly seated against each other, but not necessarily in continuous contact".  Ref: 2009 RCSC
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-10-2012 15:28
Thank you John, very interesting.

I'm going to have to give my new edition a more thourough review now that I am home and have it available. 

There would still be some questions as to exactly how this went down and what the auditor was looking for in my mind.  Often, it is communication that is the problem, not the actual procedure.  Though, in this case, there may be some need for adjustment in the procedure to meet the newest wording of the applicable standards.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 09-08-2012 14:50
FabsForLife

I have been pondering your query.
Are you referring to a procedure for Pretensioned Bolts utilizing Turn of the nut method?

What the Auditor was trying to do was what the auditor is supposed to do.
See if your referenced individuals could do what you said they were going to do according to your procedure.
Possibly the Auditor saw an area of concern.

Not having your actual procedure I really couldn't speculate on the the Auditors requests or the point trying to make.

But the idea is to attain at least minimum required tension consistently not take the fastener assembly to the borderline of Fracture.
As Chris stated there is no Maximum tension but you only want to tension as much as required (anymore is a waste).
The only time the bolt is tensioned too much is when it snaps.

If utilizing the turn of the Nut you want to develop the proper snug tightness to just insure the minimum is achieved.
If this snug tight is higher than it needs it can lead to snapping fasteners when turns are made during tensioning.

Just My ΒΆΒΆ's
Hope it Helps more than hurts

Just got our Certificate this week for another year of the Building standard qualification audit we went through.
Don't you Love them:confused:

But Good Luck and if you want to post or PM the procedure I maybe could answer more.

Marshall
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 09-10-2012 10:26
I would write this concern in your comments sections of your audit notes when you send it back.  They need to know when they make a mistake so they don't continue to imporperly inform others of the wrong information.  I have done it in the past and have not had any problems; you also won't hear back from them; it's like a black hole stuff goes in but won't come out.
Parent - - By Richard Cook (**) Date 09-10-2012 17:40
How can he quantify "a few impacts of and impact wrench:, "electric wrench... begins to slow", and "effort of a worker on an ordinary spud wrench"? I agree with below there is no value given and the Auditor was out of place, unless he was just being "helpful". I would definately challenge it if he wrote a concern or comment on it even if he didn't. I always comment and reference in my audit package anything that an auditor said at my audit wher I disagree, if only to formally document my disagreement and make it a matter of record. I even, after a heated discussion one time, insisted the auditor write a Corrective action and told him we would address the issue formally (by the way he backed down).

Auditors do have a tough job, trying to do it all in a very short time, and they can't all be "master of all trades", I know "cause I are one." By the book, with out personal opinion is the best audit technique.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-10-2012 18:09

>Auditors do have a tough job, trying to do it all in a very short time, and they can't all be "master of all trades", I know "cause I are one." By the book, with out personal opinion is the best audit technique.


I have found in helping various fabricators over the years that Structural Bolting is a very confusing topic to people. I have helped several gain certification through the AISC and had a tough time explaining how to properly address bolted connections.

"Pre-installation verification" was a foreign term to many. Some had never heard of this before, some had heard of it, but never practiced it or had any written procedures spelling out how they should perform it.

"Pretensioning"
Many simply told me that they just put the bolts in the connection and tightened them as tight as they could get it and called it a day.

"Snug Tight"
See above procedure for Pretensioning....LOL

Can I see your "Skidmore-Wilhem Device"?
What is that?

I'm telling ya.... "High Strength Bolting" ....is a very confusing topic for many.

Robert Shaw (steel structures technology center, inc.) has a small pocket guide ... "Structural Bolting Handbook"
This ^^ little pocket guide ($15.00 for the last copy I bought) is worth it's weight in gold in my opinion, because it covers every bolting situation that you may encounter as a structural fabricator or erector.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 09-11-2012 10:09
That pocket guide and his one day seminars is the best thing around.  VERY well worth the time and money.  Every bolting inspector should have one.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 09-11-2012 10:16
Fabs for Life

Was it a hex head bolt or TC?

When I pictured your situation I assumed a TC bolt in the skidmore. 
Either way I still disagree with what the auditor said to you by loosening the nut to 1 kip.  But to expand on my earlier comment (I was in a rush last time) the "bolting crew" is the guys who are actually installing the fasteners into the members.  Now normally it's us QC who are doing the skidmore each time as required; but usually we are not the bolting crew.  The object of the game is the make sure the guys/ crew installing the fasteners are doing it in a proper manner so that they achieve the correct pretension in the joint.  Now typically shop guys, and their could be anywhere from 2 -100 shop guys in any random company don't do the skidmore testing; again it's us QC who do it.  But when you step back and look at the big picture and think of who your bolting crew is; they should be the one doing the test; you'll need to be there momnitoring it and documenting it was done correctly, but it should be them installing the bolt and tightening it.
Parent - By Richard Cook (**) Date 09-11-2012 11:58
Yea, wait until the option for the "skidmore" comes into play! I'm going to use it, I have it written in my program already, being 95% of our bolting is doen with TC bolts.
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 10-13-2012 13:40
FabsForLife-

Feel free to use AISC's feedback form to address matters such as this...you can access it here - http://www.aisc.org/form.aspx?ekfrm=23836 

The online form can be submitted as many times as you like.

You will also have the opportunity to provide feedback on the auditor's performance when QMC sends your company the customer survey form; QMC sends it to your company's certification contact. I would encourage you to use it as well.

ziggy
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-13-2012 14:36
Hi Zane! :cool:
- By TAC (*) Date 10-25-2012 22:21
I wonder if your auditor is confused.  Possibly thinking of the rotational capacity test procedure?  There is a maximum initial tension for the rotational capacity test...
Up Topic Welding Industry / Processes / Pre-Installation Testing Question

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