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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / CVN requirement for Fillet weld?
- - By S. WINAI (**) Date 09-14-2012 09:26
Hi,
If contract document specified  CVN requirement. Prequalified  WPS fillet weld still can cover or need to requalified by Clause  4.  I'm look at Figure 4.40 and Table 4.14. code not state about fillet weld specimen. Pls help to explain

Thanks

winai
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 09-14-2012 22:21
Hi Mr Winai, You like to get your monies worth out of your internet connection fee's don't you?
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-15-2012 04:37
46.00,
I think it is a perfectly good question.
I think K.Winai may be working on fabrication of structures destined for Australia.
Some of the Australian specifications I have reviewed over the years are an absolute joke.
One major Australian mine owner requires lamination testing on all plate 32 mm thick and over.
Another one states in the specifications 25 mm and over and the project I am currently on lists all plates 40 mm and over ???
Makes it pretty hard for a fabricator who may possibly do work for all three companies.

This is an excerpt from a Chevron (American not Australian) specification for Structural Steel for the Gorgon LNG project

5.3.1 Fracture Toughness Requirements
Charpy V-notch impact testing of both weld metal and heat affected zone shall be
required on all welding procedure qualifications. Testing shall be in accordance with
AWS D1.1 Annex III, except that notch locations shall be at the weld centre line, fusion
line and FL +2 mm. Acceptance criteria for both weld metal and HAZ specimens shall
be as follows:

I cannot find anything in AWS D1.1 that references fillet welding and CVN testing.
Can you answer K.Winais question because I certainly can't ?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By S. WINAI (**) Date 09-15-2012 05:18
Hi,
what im understand that, prequalified WPS shall not be use. If CVN specified requirement . AWS D1.1 state only CJP Groove weld test specimen. How about PJP & Fillet weld?

Let said if that part of structure CVN requirement. have only PJP & Fillet weld. We need to requalified or still can use prequalified WPS?

Thanks
winai
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 09-16-2012 11:19 Edited 09-16-2012 11:31
Shane,

First to answer your questions in reverse order if I may,

No, I cannot answer K.Winais question and IMHO no one should be 'answering' this type of question on an internet forum with at best 30% of pertaining information presented. We can all offer ideas and opinions and in most cases, given enough basic information and background experience from the responder, these will be adequate although not definite answers to code questions, the idea being to provide code/standard references that allow the OP to pursue further research and confirm/deny his original thoughts.

In your 5.3.1 excerpt, I see you have placed in bold the statement 'all welding procedure qualifications'. That to me would state that all welding procedure qualifications would need a CVN on both Weld Metal and HAZ regardless of joint configuration of WPQ. ( I can see another question here!). I am not familiar with Cheveron structual specification but I have found it is easier to ask for a RFI/GQ or TQ or whatever terminology used in different parts of the world, to clear up different interpretations of work orders/contract specifications/purchase orders! These will nearly always outweigh any standard in effect.

Again, I have little knowledge of Australian Codes, although this may change shortly. I have heard they are "unusual"! However, in your stated case, I would perform LAM testing on all plates over-25mm and pass the cost on in a % of NDT expenses over all contract requiring LAM. I would imagine this would be cheaper, more efficient and more cost effective than trying to maintain 3 separate contract NDT document histories for LAM checking.

I disagree with you thinking it's a good question (more an adequate question:grin:), Mr Winai has stated that his contract specification require CVN, I'm far from familiar with D1.1 but I'm pretty sure contract CVN requirements would preclude the use of Pre qualified WPS's under AWS D1.1? It is easy to offer a question on the internet, but sometimes we have to make a decision, this is often harder to do! That's what being a Welding Inspector is often about.

I was being a bit sarcastic in my original response for which I apologise to the OP, you have posted this and several other questions on many welding related web sites, hence my 'getting your monies worth' comment.
Parent - - By S. WINAI (**) Date 09-16-2012 13:02 Edited 09-17-2012 03:27
Hi sir, 46.00 sorry i replied your post!
          I put on the post coz i don't know!that's why i ask this question.if i know it for what i put on the post?Pls if they have some question that we don't understand then no need to reply?than to reply that no point.
         Pls take note! no one knows everything were not perfect! if u know that u feel easy in your mind and u think that its nonsense question,but somebody don't know, we will feel difficult and need some idea that can share.

Thank u,

S. WINAI

Khon Thai Origin
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 09-17-2012 05:10
Hi S.WINAI, I understand why you asked your question, you ask a lot of questions, on here and also on other internet sites. I have no problem with that but you need to use the information provided and make a decision. Instead you just keep asking the same question in different forms!
Parent - - By FarmCode (*) Date 09-15-2012 15:32
46.00

"I have deliberately refrained from posting on this thread, and indeed this forum for quite a while because of negative feelings and replies."
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=237325

"Just saying that the quality and quantity of posts on here seem to be in decay!"


So it ok 4 U to chop people down.....?  Be negative...  As long as it's U doing the choppin.

If U wuz a Prezident they wood say u is a complicated man.

In da oil patch U would be puttin a steak on yer eye.

Refrain is a big word....  so is hyprocrite
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 09-17-2012 05:18
and your point is?......

Have you ever contributed any information to this forum?

Have worked Oilfield and no steaks on eye yet.

Been a while since I worked on a farm though!
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 09-19-2012 11:52 Edited 09-19-2012 20:28
Beware 46.00!

This gentleman might be a Klingon.

At least he sounds like one of them.

Pardon my French but: "What a rubbish!"
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-17-2012 03:33 Edited 09-17-2012 03:35
I may be off base with my response, but I believe the reason why notch toughness testing is required is to demonstrate the materials and techniques employed demonstrate sufficient toughness at the test temperature. The test is a means of ensuring the completed weldment will perform as needed in service. 

Notch toughness testing requires the use of a grooved plate test coupon so the required test samples can be machined from the test weldment. If the test weldment passes the CVN tests, the procedures and materials are judged adequate for the project. The same techniques are employed for both fillets and groove welds. The assumption is that if the same techniques are used, both fillet welds and groove welds will perform as expected.

A prequalified WPS is not adequate for projects where notch toughness requirements have been imposed. The contractor is required to weld a test coupon and subject the completed weld to the tests required by the code.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Dualie (***) Date 09-17-2012 03:59
does this even apply to electrodes that meet D1.8?
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-17-2012 04:51
Al,
Thanks for the clarification.
So, basically if the contract states impact testing but all welds are only fillet or PJP, a CJP WPS would still have to be qualified ?
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 09-17-2012 05:19
Is that not what I said?
- - By S. WINAI (**) Date 09-17-2012 08:52
Hi All,
More information
FCAW(AWS A5.20)   Y.S(N/mm²)   T.S(N/mm²)   EL.(%)   Temp. (°C)    CVN(J)
SF-71                       548             582             28           0              86
S-71H                       550             570             27         -40             60
Base metal EH 36        355             490             21         -40              27
(Minimum Spec.)

*WPS Approve: Fillet weld ( SF-71 Wire), CJP groove weld ( S-71H Wire).
Fillet weld test comply with AWS D1.1 Table 4.4 (Macro-etch 3 faces)

If contract document specified CVN requirement. Do u think this (SF-71 Wire) meet requirement?
Have some one tell me “Yes. Because WPS  qualified by clause 4.
I think the answer  can be  Yes or No. even qualified  WPS . but no conduct  CVN  test. How to prove this WPS(Fillet)is meet requirement?

Any Idea  Pls help to share.

Thank,

winai
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 09-17-2012 10:02
I rest my case!
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-17-2012 10:48
K.Winai,
As Al noted,
You have to do impact testing on a CJP PQR using the same material and welding consumable you are using in production.
That CVN qualified PQR (CJP) can then be used to write a WPS for fillets and PJPs,
Khao jai mai ?
Shane
Parent - By S. WINAI (**) Date 09-17-2012 12:44
K. Shane,
kop koon mak kharp!

pom khoa jai. but some one. mai khoa jai.

that why i think WPS Wrong. they shall revise write WPS use (S-71H Wire) for Fillet weld.:smile:

kop koon Kharp.

winai

khon Thai.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-17-2012 17:38
Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but you have to open the code and read it. Table 4.6 provides the information you are looking for. It is pretty clear what is required. You may need to bring in a consultant that is familiar with D1.1 if English is not your native language. No disrespect is intended, but facts are facts. If I was working on a project where the applicable standard was written in a language I had difficulty with, I would hire someone that could provide direction.

When working with FCAW, both the manufacturer and the brand name / type are supplementary variables. Even if the WPS was qualified with CVN, a change in brand name, even if it is the same manufacturer, requires the procedure to be requalified in its entirety. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 09-17-2012 20:25
Thank you Al, I'm glad someone finally said it the way it needed to be said.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / CVN requirement for Fillet weld?

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