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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / One code to another...
- - By newinsp (**) Date 10-04-2012 11:43
The day before I was looking at an ASME PQR and noticed that it had extra F-numbers.  Not familiar with that code.  A question came to mind:

IF a supporting PQR for an ASME IX WPS listed the Parameters, Specification and F-numbers that could be used on a D1.1 form,  could it be used to support a D1.1 WPS?  :eek:
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-04-2012 11:53
Maybe....but the paperwork and testing needs to be done according to both codes if you want the PQR to support D1.1 and ASME.
There can be some money savings if you plan all of this out before you start testing, but to cover all of the bases for both codes after the fact may be tough to pull off.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-04-2012 15:58 Edited 10-04-2012 22:27
In one simple word: No.

AWS D1.1 requires a visual examination and volumetric examination before any of the mechanical tests are performed. The VT requirements of ASME Section IX are sparse (being kind), there is no volumetric examination required, and the acceptance criteria for the bend tests are not as stringent as D1.1.

If the intent is to meet both AWS D1.1 and ASME Section IX, the decision must made before the test plates are welded to ensure the base metal meets both AWS and ASME requirements. The filler metal must be considered as well in the off chance the filler metal does not meet both codes (unlikely for most welding). The testing regime must be considered as well to ensure the more stringent requirements of AWS D1.1 are met. And last, but not least, the individual responsible for setting up, witnessing, testing, etc. must know which ASME construction code is applicable because there is a chance the construction code will alter or modify the testing requirements.

Additionally, one must also consider the fact that the essential and nonessential variables are different. AWS has a host of welding variables that must be addressed by  both the PQR and the WPS that are not required for ASME Section IX. A PQR intended for ASME doe not have to record data required for AWS. There is no honorable means of entering data that was not recorded on the original PQR. In other words, it is not considered to be good form to pencil whip the existing ASME PQR to make it work for AWS.

It reminds me of the numerous inquiries I've had for the question, "I am trying to fill out the PQR. Where do I find the voltage, amperage, and wire feed speed for my PQR and WPS?"

My response is, "You have to be there to play the game."

There are a lot of hoops to check and jump through to ensure the PQR is qualified appropriately for both AWS and ASME. The WPS, well that is a different can of worms.

It is difficult enough to qualify a WPS to one welding standard. I reject about 80 to 85% of the welding packages (PQR, WPS, and WPTR) that I review because the package does not meet all the requirements or limitations imposed by the applicable welding standard. I often have to reject prequalified WPSs because they do not address all the variables required by D1.1. Trying to satisfy two welding standards at the same time is exponentially more difficult.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By newinsp (**) Date 10-04-2012 19:58
Oh.  My grand plan was to study and take Code endorsements within just a few months.  Not really planning on ASME.  There is a bit of aluminum and sheet metal being done in this area.

Probably should spend more time working with D1.1 before moving on.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-05-2012 10:14
That isn't a bad goal. As you study additional welding standards you will see there are more similarities than differences. However, the devil is in the details. The questions come from the details.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By newinsp (**) Date 10-18-2012 12:53
It reminds me of the numerous inquiries I've had for the question, "I am trying to fill out the PQR. Where do I find the voltage, amperage, and wire feed speed for my PQR and WPS?"

That is pretty easy.  The manufacturer  has done extensive testing of it's consumable, before it is listed in A5.1, and usually lists the parameters in it's catalog.  
So far, I have written WPSs for SMAW.  That was not terribly difficult, just time consuming. 
I messed up a few months ago when I ordered self shielded .035 NP211 for doing welder qualification tests on our 3/8" plate.  It is only suitable for use on thicknesses of 5/16" or less.  The really bad part is that the supplier sent .045, with a matching set of drive rolls, instead. I made him take it all back and give me what I ordered.  :cry: Now I'm considering doing a fillet option 3 with some 1" pipe and 1/4" plate we have.  I hate having to follow a budget.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 10-18-2012 22:15
newinsp,
As Al said "You have to be there to play the game".
You should not be using manufacturers recommendations for filling out a PQR, you should be recording the actual variables when the PQR coupon is being run.
Manufacturers recommendations can be used when filling out pre-qualified WPS's but why would you run a PQR if you are not going to record the variables and then use them ?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-19-2012 00:08
Any values listed on a PQR must be actual values recorded as the welder welds the coupon. To anything else is a falsification of the test record. A major "no-No" and reason to reject the PQR, the WPS based on the falsified PQR, and any welder qualified using the WPS based on the  falsified PQR. Ouch! Unemployement is no fun and the reason for dismissal had to explain to the prospective employer.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By newinsp (**) Date 10-19-2012 02:29
I was real proud of myself until I re-read my comment w/quote.  Sorry about that.  I was in a big hurry to get to class early. I'm only doing pre-qualified WPSs right now.  I don't even know of a good place to send coupons for milling and tensile testing yet either.  I was going to wait until the section meeting next month, since those guys are fairly local to my location.
Parent - - By newinsp (**) Date 10-19-2012 02:14
I'm sorry Shane, I was in a hurry when I commented earlier.  I'm only doing pre-qualified WPSs.  I'm not doing any PQRs. Not yet anyway.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 10-19-2012 06:33
newinsp,
No need to apologise - we have all been guilty at some time of typing before the brain has been fully engaged.
And as has been noted on here many times previously a lot of us older hands started on here in exactly the place you are now.
A word of advice to hopefully help you on your way - do as much research on a question as you can and when you are completely stumped come on here and you will find there are many that will willingly assist you.
Good luck,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 10-19-2012 08:06
Sir,

if I may say.

From my viewpoint this, your whole answer to this gentleman, does deserve: ***** --> 5 stars!

Very polite, very professional.

No wonder to me that nantong does so much appreciate your advice in this forum.
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 10-19-2012 10:55
Thank you electrode,
Been on this forum for a few years now and have learnt so much from some very knowledgeable people who are either not with us anymore (Chuck Meadows) or don't post as much due to health (Henry) or don't post for various reasons (Stephan, Nieke as examples) - only fair I pick up the baton and return the favour.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By newinsp (**) Date 10-19-2012 12:18
Thanks Shane,

This is precisely why I didn't pursue a position as a CWI.  I'm fortunate to have a PT instructor position that doesn't require a CWI certification.  I'm getting a lot of hours, but hope that having the CWI cert. and four years of service will convince them to put me on full time.  There is NO pay for the work done outside of class hours, including helping the new PT instructors at the other campuses with lesson plans and instructional techniques. 

I really DO appreciate every bit of help from you guys here!!!!!!!!!!
Parent - - By newinsp (**) Date 10-04-2012 19:46
Thanks jwright650
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-17-2012 07:35
on the copy of my UA21 test 2" xxheavy sch 160 5p root 7018 out it says qualifies  unlimited
groove & fillet welds per aws d1.1  . The wps says asme sec 9 says nithi ng about aws , think
the union is taking liberties again
Parent - By newinsp (**) Date 10-18-2012 11:45
THAT is very interesting.  Now, about that can of worms....:lol:
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-19-2012 20:52
Just because they are qulified to ASME does not mean they are qualified for AWS. The acceptance criteria of AWS is more stringent than ASME section IX.

Section IX criteria for:

undercut - not addressed
overlap - not addressed
face reinforcement - not addressed
root reinforcement - not addressed
bend tests - no sum of open discontinuites required

Remember, under Section IX the welder can completely fill the ID of the pipe so even fart gas cannot pass through once it is welded. How hard can it be?

Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / One code to another...

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