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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Visual Examination
- - By jsdwelder (***) Date 10-16-2012 17:00
Can someone please give me some insight as to the amount of undercut permitted on an ASME performance weld test coupon? QW-194 states that test coupons shall show complete joint penetration with complete fusion of weld metal and base metal, but does not address undercut. Clearly that does not mean that any or all undercut is acceptable, but I have a customer asking me this question and I don't know what to tell them. Thank You
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 10-17-2012 00:21 Edited 10-17-2012 00:25
It's my humble opinion that Section IX is about procedure and performance qualification other than a construction section. Undercut requirements can be found in constrcution sections. The purpose of performance qualification is to assure the welder/operator has the ability to make "sound" welds. So the focus is whether the weld is sound inside.

The best way to make your customer happy is to take a look at the undercut requirement in the Construction Section governing your product and proudly tell your customer that "Section IX doesn't make this clear but we qualify our welders/operators with undercut meeting Section XX (your construction section) requirement. We can meet and exceed all code requirement."

Thanks,

Jovi
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-17-2012 04:25 Edited 10-20-2012 03:04
When I qualify a welder I too review the construction code (ASME Section I, Section VIII, B31.1, etc.) and use the visual acceptance criteria provided by the applicable code section.

ASME Section IX provides very little in the way of visual criteria. Based on Section IX, a pipe coupon can be welded solid such that a fly could not pass from one end to the other and it is considered acceptable. The face reinforcement could look like Mount Everest and still pass the visual criteria. The weld face can have overlap to the point it looks like icicles hanging from the eaves of a home in Buffalo, NY, and it would pass the visual criteria of Section IX. Sending a welder to the production floor or construction site that cannot meet the visual criteria of the applicable construction code does no one a service.

I agree with Jovi's philosophy.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 10-17-2012 05:18
:yell:Ha~ Al is facetious but what he said is TRUE.

Another humble opinion of mine is that the acceptance criteria of undercut is established based on the service condition of the joints. Code section/standards governing different products have different requirements for undercuts.

Section IX is "general" for procedure and performance qualification of different products, hence it doesn't address the undercut requirement.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 10-17-2012 07:38
Need you opinion sir,

If you only have one welder to be used in a plant shutdown which involved welding of process piping, pressure vessels and aboveground storage tank. Will you repeat the qualification test to suit each construction code??

Will you violate your agreement with your client if you are hired as a third party to conduct the test based purely on ASME IX?

~Joey~
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 10-17-2012 08:30
Joey,

I was just giving some ideas to jsdwelder about how to communicate with his customer.

If you, as a manufacturer (e.g. a stamp holder), want to qualify one welder for welding of various code sections, you can qualify him/her purely on IX and conduct training to make him/her aware of the undercut requirements of each code section. Or, for jsdwelder's circumstance, you can tell your customer your welder are qualified to the most stringent code section.

What we are talking about here is something exceeding minimum code requirement for perfomance qualification. You don't need to repeat the qualification test to suit each construction code since undercut is NOT an Essential Variable required by IX for welder's ability to make sound welds.

If you are 3rd party to conduct performance qualification test. Your contract responsibility is no more than the test results. You are to certify your test reports other than the WPQ/WOPQ.

Thanks,

Jovi
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 10-17-2012 09:41
Thanks :smile:
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-18-2012 00:26
Jovi, I agree 100% with your opinions!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-20-2012 03:03
I often wonder about the labs that do only the bend tests or the radiograph without witnessing the actual welding, yet they complete the test record stem to stern, sign the certifying statement and never look back. Or the lab that performs the welder qualification off-site without the contractor's presence, without the contractor viewing or passing judgement on the acceptance of the guided bend tests, and to top it off, tell the welder to use a WPS that neither the contractor or the welder (employee) has ever seen? Oh wait, isn't that called an ATF?

Just a thought.

Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-20-2012 11:11
Al, they need to add a seperate signature line to the performance record to sign stating that they only performed the actual bend testing and it was done and accepted in accordance with (insert code:current year), and then a seperate signature line for the witness to sign stating that he/she conducted the welder's performance testing in accordance with the written WPS and (insert code:current year). That way it should be clear to an auditor reviewing the performance record.

thoughts?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-20-2012 16:16 Edited 10-22-2012 16:50
That is what should be done, but how many times have you seen WPTRs with the lab's signature and not the contractor's signature?

Case in point, the AWS welder certification issued by Miami: where does the contractor sign the "certification". I guess it was my many questions that led to me getting the boot.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-22-2012 10:58
Al,
I am relieved to see your response....I help some other local contractors with welder certs and this was how we handled it. I didn't always get to see the entire thing through from start to finish, they witness the testing, I prepare and evaulate the coupons, but the certs spell this out and there are seperate signature lines for each task. These are only the contractors where I have been the one to set up their quality programs and have a good understanding with. I also hold training sessions with these companies to make sure they understand all of the ins and outs of testing before I take them on and help out in this capacity. So...I suppose if someone(a customer) wanted to take issue with not accepting them, they could always ask for a retest up front.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-23-2012 03:31
Who fills out the test report with the welder's name, process, filler metal, WPS, etc.?

If a CWI does, how does he know the information is factual unless he is there to witness who did what?

Our code of ethics says that we do not sign for anything that we did not witness or had direct supervision over. I'm not saying that the CWI is signing for anything other than the test results, but can he state with any certinty that the information he types in the spaces are true or is the CWI aiding and abeting the contractor's "lies"?

It is amazing how many people do not read the actual report. They see the CWI's signature and that's all they look for. The assumption is that the CWI is responsible for the entire test.

I only test coupons that I witness. If I do not witness the welding of the coupon I do not test any part of it. I do not fill any forms with information that I have not personally verified. Do I turn away work as a result. Yes I do. I do not want my name associated with anything that could be questioned or questionable. Reputations are hard to build, but easy to tear down.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-23-2012 12:03 Edited 10-23-2012 12:10
The contractor's witness verifies that the welder follows the WPS which spells out the process, filler metal, and the witness also verifies the welder's name.

I worked with these particular contractors and set up their entire quality programs, wrote their WPS's and worked with and provided all of their training and enough so that they now hold AISC qualifications, it is not just somebody just walking in off the street and handing over a coupon to evaluate.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-23-2012 16:48
Technically it is the contractor's responsibility anyway. You just don't want to find yourself in a compromised position because they did something stupid.
Al
Parent - - By kevin zhang (*) Date 02-05-2013 05:45
:smile:Hello, Al

You mean the visual test shall be according to ASME Section I, Section VIII, B31.1, and the applicable code section, could you tell me which part tell the requirements of visual 

acceptance criteria?

Thank you

Kevin
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-05-2013 12:12 Edited 02-06-2013 00:39
It is usually adressed in the acceptance criteria found in the inspection section. You need to know what construction code (in addition to Section IX) if you use that approach.

Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 02-05-2013 20:42
You won't find it in Sections I and VIII.

By the way, anybody finding their way to LA next week?
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-06-2013 01:33
Interpretation: IX-01-03
Subject: QW-194, Visual Examination
Date Issued: January 3, 2001
File: BC00-519
Question: Is a welder’s performance qualification test coupon in which undercut is present acceptable,
provided that the rest of the examinations and tests are acceptable?
Reply: Yes. However, manufacturers may disqualify welders based on QW-301.2 when discontinuities
such as undercut and porosity do not comply with the quality requirement of the manufacturer.

Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By ANDTLIII Date 02-06-2013 18:00 Edited 02-06-2013 19:41
Good work Shane, you hit the nail on the head!

Wow, I am just reviewing some of the AWS forums and am really getting to think they are a waste of time!  It seems that there are a couple of forum users that get way off track of the original question that is posted and readers often find it difficult to find the answers because they have to screen through the BS that has nothing to do with the original question asked in the first place!

It is not only in this particular forum, I am finding the same people in alot of other forums doing the same thing.  I am wondering where do these guys find time to make money!

Where are the forum moderators and what are they moderating? One would think that the posts that have nothing to do with the original posts would get kicked out in order to keep the forums a technical resource instead of a place some people go to get that EGO trip high!

Just an observation!

[Just my observation, this posting needs to be kicked to the curb because it is off topic as you suggested of other postings.]-by moderator
John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-06-2013 18:32 Edited 02-06-2013 18:34
There are other forums you can frequent or you can hire a paid consultant to provide you with answers to your question or you can research the questions for yourself. Then you do not have to wade through the BS.

Simple questions, simple solutions.

Al
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 02-06-2013 18:48
Al

Good information again.

Marshall
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 02-06-2013 21:46
These forums are not quiz shows. They are, by design, of a conversational nature. Which means that they can go tangent sometimes. But far from being a liability, I see it as an assett since much can be learned in addition to the original subject matter especially when contributors such as Al, jon, Shane, or john (and many others) have input.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-08-2013 00:38 Edited 02-08-2013 00:40
Just to add on to the comments made by Al & Js55,
You just went off topic by writing what you did!
You have got to be blind if you didn't figure out that if you want to complain about content in some of the threads,
you would want to register the complaint in the section titled:"Posts about the forum"...

So if you don't like what you see, then you got three options and they are;
1.) Use the notify button found on the bottom of each post, or
2.) register your complaint by starting a thread and posting in the section named "Posts about the forum" or,
3.) go frequent another forum if that will help you to avoid getting angry, frustrated or anything else that adds to
your already negative omnipotent attitude - your choice!

Henry
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Visual Examination

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