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Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-23-2012 07:24
Did you read about the Black hole discovered by NASA via the swift satellite near the center of our milky way galaxy?
I'm always fascinated by that sort of stuff... Here's some pics of it:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121005162822.htm

http://www.space.com/17215-black-holes-seeds-found-milky-way.html

http://www.space.com/31-black-holes-universe.html

Figments of our imaginations eh? I think not! I know I went off topic but, it's an interesting ride of bending tangents don't you think???:eek::twisted::lol::roll::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Dualie (***) Date 10-24-2012 00:53
Wow, that is pretty awesome indeed.

I would like to just come out and say, Henry is one of my favorite If not THE favorite forum contributor.    It amazes me your catalog of Internet resources and how you can back every single stance with facts and added resources to broaden anyones horizons willing to got through and read the links you provide.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-24-2012 01:16 Edited 10-24-2012 04:05
I like Henry too...he is an onry fella but is one of this forums greatest resources.

THe speed with which very very massive stars are orbiting that thing is incredible to say the least.  I think it is mind bending if they could see a halo on it they probably would detect zero (for all intents anyway) deflection from those orbits.  Which string theory you want to smash brains against...there are still a few versions out there.  Anytime you start adding dimensions it gets difficult to deal with for the human perception and mind....its much "easier" to deal with it mathematically...dang did I just say that...the math sux too.  But it is easier to bend your head round then the concept.    I have to admit it, I am a huge physics, cosmology/astronomy fan.   I find magnetars and pulsars pretty dang fascinating too.  When you squeeze matter beyond the confines of the orbit of the electron, some really interesting things start happening.   Gravity RULES/Gravity kills.

BTW I still am not buying the Dark Matter stuff yet....there is not enough math behind the idea.  EDIT  Ok not enough math describing the particle anyway. God never said he would tell us everything, just what we could handle when we could handle it.

Lets face it folks, real space travel in our time scales is about as foreboding as riding a pogostick thru a minefield blindfolded.

Sorry to derail the thread...

Cheers
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 10-20-2012 21:21
"It makes me happy every time you pitch in Henry."

I agree! Henry, you have a way with making us all see things in a different light!
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 11-14-2012 07:56
Henry, what is your 'take' on DC- GTAW of Al alloys using both manual and also Orbital equipment?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-14-2012 19:27
That's another totally different topic and should be started on with another, new thread... It doesn't help other folks to get off topic in this already established topic thread.

So by all means, start another thread on that very topic.

Henry
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 11-16-2012 07:51 Edited 11-16-2012 07:54
:confused::cool::twisted:
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 11-16-2012 07:56
Black holes have what bearing on AC rectification?
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-16-2012 19:47
It all depends on where the rectification is taking place.:eek::wink::cool:
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-17-2012 00:42
Gravity affects everything within its reach.
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 11-17-2012 17:02
True............:cool:
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-18-2012 04:40
Not only that, it seems to be getting stronger all the time, as well as the air getting thinner, the ground getting harder, and the hills getting steeper...:sad:
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-18-2012 15:36
AHAHahhhaha   I am glad I am not the only person that noticed that.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-19-2012 02:30
Patrick McManus, who used to write a humorous column for Field & Stream, then put the stories in books, has a story about this.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-21-2012 00:55 Edited 10-22-2012 17:41
Okay so, this is now going to become a mixing session...

I believe that by looking @ the question again we can come up with a definitive answer for your student if we take what is relevant information from Larry's answer as well as what Al has posted and the "stuff" I just posted along with what I'll also post that's new from my original post... In other words, every one has contributed to the answer below in one form or another.:lol:

AC GTAW operations on aluminum are thought to require superimposed High Frequency (HF) in order to avoid rectification, assuming a sine wave or traditional transformer square wave power supply is being used...  However those same power supplies can peform AC SMAW operations seemingly without rectification or HF.  This is true because we can observe it; but why?

Okay so let's break the question down to this:

1.) AC (TIG) GTAW of Aluminum: is one process but the question is concerning a different yet similar in that it is also a constant current welding process which is SMAW...

2.) Are thought to require superimposed High Frequency (HF) in order to avoid rectification, assuming a sine wave or traditional transformer square wave power supply... A Miller syncrowave falls into the traditional transformer square wave power supply type of power source...

3.) However those same power supplies can peform AC SMAW operations seemingly without rectification or HF.  This is true because we can observe it; but why?

So before I try to narrow this part of the question down or rather clarify/simplify it somewhat, It would have been most helpful if the base/parent metal were also included as part of the query in order to avoid any confusion as to what material was being used when the student observed the AC SMAW(MMA) operations... I believe most of us assumed that the student was referring to carbon steel as opposed to Aluminum (I really do not find any joy using that word!)...

Now that we broke down the question, let's look at it closer... Generally speaking, why does AC MMA/SMAW not require superimposed HF in order to avoid rectification with a traditional transformer square wave power supply and what prevents the arc from extinguishing?

The first part of the answer would be because;

1.)AC MMA/SMAW is a different constant current welding process, and yet it can still be produced from the same power source as the one which produces an AC TIG GTAW process with the addition of a superimposed HF in order to avoid rectification such as a Miller syncrowave.

2.) Most SMAW electrodes contain cellulose or metal carbonates that disassociate in the arc, forming a gas shield to protect the weld metal from atmospheric contamination.
This shield consists primarily of the active gases, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, hydrogen, and oxygen. These gases do not develop a highly conductive arc plasma. The current distribution is such that the liquid metal is forced away from the arc and weld pool in massive drops and spatter. Because these reactions are more intense when the electrode is negative, DC reverse polarity is generally used with the covered electrodes that do not contain cathode stabilizers within the flux coating such as E6010, E7015.

Even though this paragraph isn't directly relevant to answering the question, it is important to note some of the flux coating ingredients/Coverings shown and each of their purposes... Coverings are intended to make the electrode thermionic (electrons emitted from materials at high temperatures). Rutile, Lime, and Iron oxide are generally used in combination for this purpose.Such electrodes produce a more stable arc, less spatter, and form smaller drops with direct current electrode negative. Included in this type are the E6012, E6020, and the high iron powder varieties... This next paragraph explains what keeps the arc on and reigniting!

The stability of the arcs with AC is dependent upon reignition of the arc during the interval when polarity is changed and the current has been reduced to zero.Stability frequency is achieved by substituting Potassium Silicate for Sodium Silicate. The potassium forms a lower ionization path between the electrode and work and increases the cathode emissivity to permit an easy reignition of the arc. Electrodes containing large amounts of Rutile and Lime are also Thermionic and do not require a potassium silicate binder for AC welding. AWS Welding Handbook 8th edition, volume 1 Welding technology, Physics of Welding, page 54, Shielded Metal Arc.

So Larry, I think the paragraph above  covers this; "2) AC SMAW has been blasting away practically since alternating current and wire first met. with no need for any kind of help." except in making sure that the correct electrodes are being used that have the desired ingredients within the flux coatings:cool:. #1 is already answered above!:eek::lol::wink:

3.) Switch the HF switch off and Voila! One can still produce an arc using AC current.

So all of that other stuff was nothing more than filler and not relevant to the query from Larry's student.  Right??? No, not really... But one has to note as "electrode" did, that the amount of confusion one can encounter when initially observing the entireity of this thread, one can come to the conclusion that information overload is very prevalent here and confusion reigns supreme!!! So I would venture to claim that the answer is found when 1.) one considers the type of power source and how it is configured, 2.) the type of ingredients found in the flux coating covering the electrodes, 3.) the current required to start the arc, 4.) and the process being used, 5.) along with the skill level of the welder.

Finally, I leave you with this from The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding from Lincoln Electric, Fourteenth Edition, 5.1-2, Welding Processes, Principles of Operation.

When electric arc welding was first developed, bare mild steel electrodes were used.
it was not only difficult to weld with bare electrodes because the arc was erratic but the weld deposit contained high levels of porosity, oxides and nitrides from reaction with the air. As may be expected, these welds lacked ductility and toughness. An essential feature of the electrode used in the shielded metal arc process is a covering or coating, applied to the core metal by extrusion or dipping, that contains ingredients to shield the arc and protect the hot metal from chemical reaction with constituents of the atmosphere.

The shielding ingredients have several functions. One is to shield the arc by providing a dense, impenetrable envelope of vapor or gas around the arc and the molten metal. This is necessary  to prevent the pick up of oxygen and nitrogen and the chemical reaction of oxides and nitrides in the weld pool. Another is to provide scavengers and deoxidizers to refine the weld metal. A third is to produce a molten slag coating over molten globules of metal during their transfer through the arc stream. The molten slag floats on the surface of the weld pool because it is of lower density than the metal and solidifies after the weld metal. Fig 5.1 illustrates the decomposition  of an electrode covering and the manner in which the arc stream and weld metal are shielded from the air. Edit: The illustration below should suffice for Figure 5.1 I think.:eek::lol::wink:

Another function of the shield is to provide the ionization needed for AC Welding. With alternating current, the arc goes out 120 times per second. for it to be reignited every time it goes out, an electrically conductive path must be maintained in the arc stream. Potassium compounds in the electrode covering provide  ionized gaseous particles that remain ionized during the fraction of a second that the arc is extinguished with AC cycle reversal. An electrical path for reignition of the arc is thus maintained.

I'm tired so let me go lay down for a few winks and then I'll wait for a response. :eek::yell::twisted::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Hen:wink:ry
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-21-2012 01:33
Thanks for that great answer Henry.  You must have a lot of great resources on your computer.  I don't have many of those books in my personal library.

As usual you went above and beyond the call of duty.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-22-2012 16:59
As always, an excellent response, clear and concise.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 11-19-2012 12:07
Question.
At my old employer the welders would sometimes use a "dry rig"; which is a GTAW set up hooked up to a SMAW machine whether it be a shop unit or portable gas driven.
I'm pretty sure they didn't have high frequency and they would only use it for small repairs in limited acces areas.
How could they do GTAW w/ out high frequency?
I know it worked becasue I watched them do it.  I am not an electrical person so very basic explanation please.  Feel free to wave your hands if it will help me understand :wink:
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-19-2012 12:21 Edited 11-19-2012 12:54
Old school........... Which lots of field welders still employ... It's a technique called scratch start.

Edit:   I have a few more minutes

So the GTAW torch is hooked to the EN lug,  The current is generally not controlable up or down unless you have a special trick torch...

So you get full amperage (whatever the machine is set at) and full open circuit voltage when you scratch the tungsten electrode to the work... (sorta like a match)

The torches typically have an argon on/off knob on the back so the operator can turn the gas on right before the weld start and turn it off at termination...

I've done miles and miles of stainless pipes this way for wineries in Napa and Sonoma.

Edit, Edit:

The scratch start has obvious disadvantages when compared to HF start... The scratch can/will leave a small amount of tungsten where the contact is made with full open circuit voltage and full current....

A newer technology available these days is called "lift arc" and reduces both the current and open circuit voltage when the GTAW electrode touches the work.  When the electrode lifts off the work, a "softer" arc is initiated, which reduces the tungsten contamination potential... Not as clean as HF but much superior to scratch start.

However... Foot pedals and rheostats are not always available... and X-ray quality welds are produced by the thousands every day without either HF or "lift arc"... 

A slight blunting at the tip of a 3/32 electrode in consert with a more radical bevel prep angle will also help to reduce tungsten contamination when scratch starting with GTAW
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 11-19-2012 15:22
eekpod, I might only a couple of additional comments to Lawrences post, many years ago I was interested in nuclear pipe welding and spent a bit of time at Columbia Basin College in Pasco, WA. observing their training regimen on GTAW of nuclear carbon pipe. They would use a scratch block to initiate the arc and bring the arc into the groove after initiation. The scratch block was made of copper and clamped into place alongside of the groove, as I recall. Additionally, when they were setting up their "rigs" they would use a similar block that was in-line with an ammeter to set the output amperage. I believe this was the way that they achieved consistent arc performance when switching from one machine to another. Just a few more "cents" to add to the conversation. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-20-2012 02:31
"How could they do GTAW w/ out high frequency?"

They weld with DC with such a rig, no HF needed to keep the arc going.

Aluminum is seldom welded with DC. It can be done with DCEP and helium, but generally isn't.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 11-20-2012 11:22
Great!
Thanks everyone for the input.  Like I said Iv'e seen it done but I didn't understand how it worked from an electrical perspective.
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