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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / IIW Type 1 US Block Documentation
- - By PWCameron (**) Date 10-24-2012 10:39
I was asked by an auditor to provide Calibration Documentation on an old IIW Block we've had around for ever.  Is it possible to find that type of document?  Is some type of calibration documentation provided when you purchase a new IIW Block?  This one was made by KG-Aerotech.

Any feedback?
PWC
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-24-2012 11:34
I think that you can can send it back and get new papers for it.....I still have the yellowed copies that came originally with all of my cal blocks, and as long as the blocks are not damaged in any way(you sure can't wear them out..LOL), I can't imagine how an auditor could refuse the documentation from the mfg.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-24-2012 11:42
just thinking outloud here...as long as you have your UT machine calibrated annually and that calibration was done to a NIST standard, it looks like you could verify the cal block(backwards calibration?) to show that the distances/angles on the block are still accurate...eh, maybe not...the transducers would have all had to have been calibrated at the same time the UT machine was and tracible to the NIST standard.

KB -Areotech...Hmm...Call Detek and see if they can help you get new papers for your block.
http://www.detek.com/
1-800-638-0554
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-24-2012 13:20
yeah, cause we know those holes may creep out of tolerance over time:yell:
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-26-2012 11:40
I use my block alot...but it doesn't show any signs of wear YET. But I suppose that a person could drop the block and put some indications in it that wasn't there to begin with. Nicks along the 4" radius, or along the edges where you couple up to verify angles?

Maybe the auditor was thinking along the lines that any item/tool used to verify an instrument used in acceptance/rejection of material/welds needs some paperwork showing it is traceable to a NIST standard.(at the least a mfg certification showing compliance to a standard)
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 10-26-2012 11:26
PWC, et al:
where is the requirement stated that the IIW standard have calibration documentation?
maybe i'm missing something but i cannot find such a requirement in either D1.1 or D1.5...
never claimed to know it all; and i'm not ut certified, so if its out there please enlighten me...thanks,
ziggy
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-26-2012 14:54
I'll bet it was an AISC auditor.
That's a REAL lame request if you ask me. just my opinion.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-26-2012 15:12
LOL...I bet it was too.... :twisted::evil::cool::cool: What do you think ziggy?
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 10-26-2012 17:23
hmmm...that's why i'm asking the "chapter/verse" question...

we all have the God-given right to ask "why?"...a practice i'm fond of...

kinda like what one wise ironworker told me that everytime he goes into a meeting he wants to come out having learned something...whether good or bad

my dad used to say "the day you stop learning is the day you die"

so, my question to the auditor would be "why do i have to have that paperwork for my IIW block?" then the onus is back on the auditor to show you "chapter / verse"...if they can and it's not out of context, then i'll need the paperwork; otherwise, let's move on...

ziggy
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-26-2012 17:32
ziggy,
You know that I was just busting your chops....right? :grin:
Parent - By ziggy (**) Date 10-30-2012 00:34
yeah...it's okay...some days i do need that! thanks John...
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-27-2012 03:20
My first comment would be that you have not provided enough details to properly answer the question. What code, what year, etc are not specifically given.
Withstanding that, I'll pick a structural code and year out of the blue to give you an idea. Say AWS D1.1 2002.

Underneath section 6 paragraph 6.23.1 it gives you a starting point. It states (paraphrased) that the IIW UT reference block is to be used as a 'standard'. It further references Figure 6.22

Figure 6.22 gives a drawing of the IIW block. The general notes below give you dimensional tolerances (.+- .005" maximum of 125 microinch RMS, material A36 or acoustically equivalent, holes smoothed and 90 degrees out, degree lines and indentification markings, etc)

Those are the base requirements. So what paper work do you have for that block that proves those requirements have been meet?

Ray-Check for instance gives you a calibration report. In it is the material, heat number, SN of the block, nominal and actual tolerances, along with the MTR for the material.
They also provide a statement that the block has been inspected o ISO 9001 (read ISO 2400) with calibrated instruments in accordance with ANSI Z540-2.

I've read some of the previous answers, and disagree with them. AWS does not specifically call out a certificate requirement, however, how do you prove the requirements that they do call out are met? For all that auditor knows that block was cut out of random carbon steel that may or may not be acoustically equivalent in bubba's back yard.

The only way you can prove it is in a like manner as the mentioned block from ray-check or other like manufacturer.

My two cents for what its worth.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-29-2012 11:16
Well any UT calibration blocks Iv'e ever seen or worked with were always factory made/ machined with identifying markings and serial numbers etched on them. 
So it never occured to me to question the validity of those particular blocks.

Now if it looked like a hand made block without any ID on it, then I can see why one might question of it's validity and asking for a cert for it.
I went back through my files and sure enough there are certs for my blocks.  They were here before I started so it didn't occur to me that they would be a cert behind it, but it does make sence since it is part of calibrating a piece of equiptment.

I also have the cert for my 10 lb bar for MT calibration to confirm it weighs 10 lbs.
Parent - By trapdoor (**) Date 10-29-2012 23:09
I agree with Gerald. And it is possible to buy scratched, dented, and out of tolerance blocks for a discount from PH tool.
Parent - - By PWCameron (**) Date 10-30-2012 15:44
Thanks Gerald,
It was a customer inspector who was checking our calibration system.  His question was pretty simple, "Got documentation to back that up?"  Through the s/n I was able to find that the block was 30 yrs old and no documentation was available from the manufacturer.
I decided to purchase a new block.  It came with documentation.  I'm all good.
PWC
Parent - - By trapdoor (**) Date 10-31-2012 04:37
you can also have a dimensional inspection done and recertified.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-31-2012 13:55
But of course, heaven forbid you UT guys would be using a Calibration Block that was not currently CALIBRATED/CERTIFIED.

You may find that this is more an issue of what is stated in your own QC manual in the calibration of testing equipment.  If you have stated that certain procedures are followed to confirm the calibration of any tool used in testing then that probably includes your Block.  That is where auditors catch many shops, their own paperwork.  They try to really impress when they first get the Certified Status and submit their reams of paperwork to boggle/baffle the auditors.  Then, when up for the actual audit they get asked questions they have no answer for nor paperwork to support.

Just my two tin pennies worth as I am not a UT tech.  Interesting discussion though.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / IIW Type 1 US Block Documentation

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