Self-Employed Certs?

Date 10-25-2012 19:21

Looks like there should be a CWI locally to you who could help with your certification process. I agree that it looks funny when a single owner operator gives himself a test and declares that he passed every thing(no matter how honest you may be).

By OklaWelding Date 10-25-2012 21:38

I will see what I can do on finding a CWI to help out. One more question. I have been toying with the idea of hiring a guy. He has no certs. Would I be able to certify him?

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-26-2012 03:17

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

To D1.1 I presume. Maybe. Do you have a copy of the code? Do you have a proper set of correct radius dies for bending the coupon? Do you know where to cut the speciman from the test plate? Do you know the procedures for setting up the test plate? Materials to be used? Root gap? backing bar size? Do you have the proper forms to fill out when finished?

Now, even if you could answer all of those questions with a 'YES' it would still only be an in house qualification. Yes, you can do it, but many of the jobs such as you describe will specify in the General Structural Notes that the welders need to hold a current certification from an independent testing agency. I never run the tests on my own people. I bring in an independent to do all the work of qualifying. Now, here is the finish, I then 'CERTIFY' that the test was run correctly and that the welder was indeed the person named on the paperwork. Do the same for yourself, get someone else to monitor the test. But, you will still have to sign it that all was done per code.

It is the old word game of knowing the difference between Qualified and/or Certified. You sign the bottom of the papers in the proper location indicating authority as the company representative that all was done in accordance with the applicable code. That is what 'Certifies' the welder. Until then, he is qualified by passing the weld test.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By 803056

Date 10-30-2012 18:04

I find that most people that say they can't find a CWI to test their welder really mean they don't want to pay the price to test their welders.

Qualifying and certifying welders is simply a cost of doing business in today's marketplace. If you want the work, you need the qualifications and certifications to play. It is no different than buying fuel for your car, truck, or welding machine. No one likes to pay for fuel (or electricity to light the shop), but it beats walking to the job or turning the generator by hand.

If the job does not warrant paying the price to become qualified, don't take the job. It is a simple question of economics.

I have people always crying about the cost of qualifying their welders and maintaining a quality program to meet NAVSEA requirements, but they don't mind cashing the check when the job is completed. Funny how that works.

Those of us that have become certified have a sizable investment in terms of time and money. Just like you, we expect to make a day's pay and a reasonable return on our investment. Like you, we charge for our services. Unless you offer your services and equipment free of charge, why should you expect anything less from a testing agency?

I find it amazing that so many welders piss and moan about having to pay to take a qualification test. I asked one welder what he charges per day. Then I asked him why he thought I should charge any less for my time?

Good luck.

Al

By jsdwelder (***)

Date 11-06-2012 15:16

Great reply Al. I once posted a similar post to a similar question and was seriously blasted for it. Again, as Al states " What makes your time more valuable then mine"?

By 803056

Date 11-06-2012 15:31

This can be a tough playground. It is a rough crowd, but they are a lot of fun to hang around with. :wink:

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 00:47

Okla,

All you need to do is find a testing facility(with CWI's), have them write your procedures for D1.1, which I believe they don't have to write because they are, uhh, brain fart, prequalified? Is that right guys? Anyhow, get your procedures, then test yourself!

If your the owner of the company, the welder then there you have it. Administer your test, drop off your plates and your qualified. Up here in the great state of Tennessee I give my employees the tests(yep, me). I supervise the ASME, AWS tests(honestly and NO CHEATING!!!). The only test I have to have an outside observer is the API test. Then it's a CWI or a member of the gas department, which is where I take my tests every year now. He writes them a nice letter telling them what type of pipe, filler, etc., etc., and I test there at the gas company with guys I know, nice and relaxed!

After you have your paperwork then you have to keep up with the log, every 6 months doing something structural to show that you are maintaining your abilities. Got my 3G and 4G, easy peasy.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 10:58

Cummins.    Just to speak to the one part..

Yes   A prequalified WPS must also be created...

It's common enough to encounter folks who are under the mistake impression that the D1.1 code book is chock full of prequalified WPS's and all you need to do is rip one out or copy it and you are good to go for prouduction or testing... Not the case in actuallity

The section or clause on prequalification provides the essencials in the form of tables, figures, text and notes which must be balenced against one another in order to generate a prequalified wps.

Writing a compliant prequalified WPS takes a bit of work and know how   :)

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 11:03

Thanks Lawrence, I thought there was a little more to it, cost me over $300 for mine plus testing so figured they must have done something! LOL!

By eekpod

Date 11-20-2012 11:28

Imagine how easy it would be if you could just "rip one out of the book". But then again there wouldn't be as much of a need for CWI's if it was like that.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 12:02

Shawn,

The AWS does produce a thing called an Standard Welding Procedure Specification or SWPS.

These are procedures entirely complete, electrode, WFS, Voltage, Gasses, Materials, thickness and joint configurations as well as positions all figured out and proven by multiple PQR's... Sometimes more than 10 PQR's go into them.

They are limited in scope and users must comply with all aspects of the SWPS in order for it to be of use.

So pretty limited in production... But not a bad way to go for testing or simple construction.

They aren't cheap... But neither is hiring a competent person to generate a compliant WPS.... I know what I charge at least.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 15:14

I run into it quite often lately, you ask to see their WPS's and they say... 'It's in the D1.1 Codebook. Their pre-qualified.'

Nice pat answer that really means...' I'm stupid and don't have a codebook nor B2.1 and don't want to spend money and/or time to try to figure all that stuff out but someone else told me that's where they were.'

It's so fun being an inspector :roll:

.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 15:32

Now Ward, aren't you being a little hard on the Beaver?

Sometimes its just ignorance, which can often be cured.

Sometimes it's a dishonest manager trying to get by without doing dilligent work... This generally is punished in the marketplace.

We inspectors are bound to shine the light into the darkness... Sorting motives? Why bother? :)

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 20:30 Edited 11-26-2012 16:52

Lawrence,

Is there really such a thing as "JUST ignorance" ? This work is really not rocket science. It really bothers me when they are working to codes they have never seen and can't be bothered to buy. Believe me, when I first bought the shop here in AZ I had a lot of learning to do and books to buy when I started doing the structural work. But the first job I went to bid told me what all the job needed to be compliant to. Why would I say I was doing something to a specified code when I don't have the code book? Maybe that's JUST me, but I like to read and know that I have everything in place.

I agree, no time nor need for me/us to sort motives. But, who needs to? It all comes down to the money...make as much as you can while spending as little as you can in both time and resources. Quality and Public Safety are not true considerations for a large majority of these people. They can't be bothered with what it takes to do the job right. The few who you COULD say were teachable in their ignorance still should not have been doing the job until they had all their ducks in a row. I ALWAYS start at the beginning of a print pack. I even look at the ground work, foundation, etc. But especially, I read the GSN on the structurals and it tells me most all I need to know even if I don't open up the Job Specs and see all the 500 pages of lawyer disclaimers and contractor responsibilities.

Yes, there are teachable people out there, but how did they get into a particular business/contract without properly researching the work first? I don't call that "just ignorance". I call it incompetent neglect. Sure, we all make mistakes. We overlook certain things at times. But there is a difference when people don't even try to meet the qualifications.

Shawn, That's the way it should be. I have all my shop and personal records on my computer which goes most everywhere with me. Then I have a box full of code books, more at the office, and some I leave in my office area on bigger jobs when doing inspections (yes, I really do have 3-6 copies of everything, especially after I signed my shop up as a Sustaining Company).

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 11-20-2012 16:51

I have them(AWS) in my briefcase, in my truck on every job, along with my procedures for API 1104, lab results, pee tests, insurance papers. Have AWS, API and ASME books(old) and try to read, learn when I have time and when I have my laptop in the truck the books are with me too.

Was not trying to offend CWI's across the world, merely stating to OP that it would be easier to talk to a lab, CWI as it would be easy for a CWI to whip something basic(carbon steel) up for D1.1 than it would be to write procedures for welding titanium for a rocket and from my vantage point it was not that difficult to get the required documents, just cost a bit of money but well worth it in the long run.

But yes, you do have to at least have an understanding of what it all means, perhaps a course in tech schools to educate young welders to be on the basics of welding code, pqr, wps, yada, yada.....yada....

Cheers :wink: