Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / What type of Welding Machine to Buy as a Generator
- - By eekpod (****) Date 10-31-2012 10:30
OK guys, I'm coming up on day #2 without power here in RI and I don't have a home generator.
We have water, gas so we are ok, just no power, in general were fine, just a little inconvience, considering what people in NY and NJ are going through, I'm very happy and can't complain.

I have been wanting to get a gas or diesel welding machine to use as a backup generator for years now but could never afford it.

I need input as to what to look for in the next few months.  Keep in mind the welding (SMAW) would only be done VERY rarely if ever.  I'd like to have the option if needed.
I don't want a $400 cheap home depot generator to run the fridge only, I want something that will power most of the house or at least a few items.

Is there anything I can get used in the $1500 range?

It will be permanently housed in a detached garage inside under cover and I'll pipe the exhaust out the side of the garage and run the power through the existing underground conduit.
Thanks
Chris
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-31-2012 13:27
Man Chris, you ask a difficult question for that little money and with current conditions in your area.  ALL machines will be at a premium.

I just bought one of the NEW Miller Trailblazer 325's with all the options.  EFI, etc.  Won't tell you what I got it for, but they are going for about 4X's what you want to spend normally. 

They are great for fuel economy and auxillary power.  They do a lot more than what you are after. 

I would actually recommend going with a generator only model of Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, etc.  I have a 6500 that is probably worth about the range you are looking at for a used unit.  New they are probably about 2500-3000 (purely an estimate as I haven't looked at generators in a long time).

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By TozziWelding (**) Date 11-13-2012 22:00
Brent, I almost had a heart attack when I saw the price, I will spend the extra money on a Pro 300 or a bigger Diesel machine. My old 301G has served me well but I need a bigger machine now.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2012 00:33
Hello Tozzi,

Hope all is well with you, been a while since I heard from you directly.

Now, If you just ask for the normal MSRP from your Local Supplier it will indeed be quite high, at least as far as I (and obviously you) am concerned.  But, with your account it should be considerably cheaper when you get right down to it with them.  But then, I pulled a few favors and some creative alternatives to normal pricing.  Can't be specific for obvious reasons but I feel I got a great price on it considering all the options that were included.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By shorthood2006 (****) Date 10-31-2012 18:40
a  buddy has a generac brand  generator in enid ok. its el start and has less then 3 hours on it. he gave 2grand and is asking 1200. its a 1500 watt machine.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-31-2012 19:04
$1200 for a 1500w machine...not bad, but if you add a few dollars to that $1200, you can buy a brand new Honda EU3000i inverter based genset that is really quiet and sips gas. I routinely get 14-15 hours of runtime out of the small gas tank on mine. I paid $1700 at Northern Tool several years ago and have nothing but praise for this little genset. It's quiet enough that I've taken it camping in campgrounds where generators are not allowed and had other campers stand near the front of my truck and ask me how I was running my AC(the generator was running in the back near the tailgate....LOL)
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-31-2012 19:26
That's what I was afraid of, that a used welding machine would be that much money.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-31-2012 22:00
The problem is any used welding machine with enough 110-220v output to be really usefull is gonna be a big boy or a very new somewhat big boy.  There comes a point when depreciation just ceases, no matter how old if it is still functioning it has a certain value no matter what.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-01-2012 00:05
I would suggest a $2500.00 budget and get a decent generator with 240V and a Miller Maxstar (or equivalent). Some creative hunting and shopping on Craigslist and other internet sources could get you down into your original budget since my figure would be close or at new price.
A couple of years ago, CostCo had a 10K diesel generator for $1000 clams.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-01-2012 04:33
Now is a poor time to look for any generator in an area without power.
Normally You could get a decent used Ranger 8 or a Bobcat for $1500.

As a generator only, the Honda inverter generators are a great machine, if 1,2 or 3 KW is enough.
If they make larger ones, I have not seen one.
These run at reduced speed under low load, the inverter maintains the 60Hz & voltage.
This greatly reduces noise & fuel consumption.
They are not cheap, but they are worth it.

I have a Ranger 9 in a shed away from the house, with the exhaust piped outside.
With the windows closed, You can hardly hear it run.
I have a #8 cable made up that reaches the house, I just backfeed to the welder outlet.
If You do this, BE DAMNED SURE TO OPEN THE MAIN BREAKER.
This is against the law, but it does work.
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 11-01-2012 16:10
Might try the Brigg and Stratton 8000 watt continuous and the Esab 161lts. This would give you both within your budget and new, if you get the generator at 1000 and are happy with a dc tig/stick w/ dual voltage (no tig equip.). Don't even look, if you don't want Chinese manfacture!
Parent - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 11-03-2012 05:04
A friend of mine would use his lincoln 250 diesel to power his whole house a/c,fridge etc.
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 11-03-2012 23:15
Hey EEK, forget about the welding machine! Sandy left us without power for 12 hrs and it cost me $45 to run the 07 Trailblazer. I have an EU2000 Honda that will run the pellet stove, TV, and a lights for approx six hours on one gallon.  But got a phone call "Daddy could we barrow the Honda-PLEEAASE" The Honda only has 13 amps but sounds like it would fit your needs.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 11-05-2012 11:59
Ive been looking online doing a little searching.
Those Honda look nice but they are not cheap.
What does "inverter" type of generator mean?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-05-2012 12:07
The current coming off the generator is wild current, Honda runs the current through an inverter to condition the current into a nice smooth 60hz and at stabil voltage.
Parent - By TRC (***) Date 11-05-2012 23:38
Clarify.... spend the money and get the eu3000 that jw spoke of- ted
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-06-2012 13:27
I purchased a Honda 3000ei invert type unit (3000 watt) as suggested by John. It is a dream, but I wish I had sprung for the 6000 model (6000 watt). The larger unit would have the capability of producing 220/240 V as well as 110/120 V. It would have been enough to operate my Miller Dynasty for the "once in a while" projects that requires a degree of portability.

I opted for the 3000 because it produces less noise and is easier on fuel consumption. It is very quiet. You have to listen hard to hear if it is running while I'm sitting inside watching the TV. The 6 gallon fuel capacity is more than sufficient to last more than 12 hours between fill ups. They say it will go 20 hours on 6 gallons at 20% load if I remember correctly, but I usually top it off every 12 hours. I have never actually run it dry, because you have a variable load depending on what is running. It can run several items in the house, i.e., boiler and refrigerator. Usually the cable is down if there is no power, but it will run the large screen TV when cable is available.

I would definitely buy another Honda inverter style machine. Less noise, less fuel, and greater stability for the power, i.e., voltage and hertz produced. That is important when running electric motors and computers.

The cost of the unit is high, but it pays for itself if you need to run it for an extended period of time. The generator does little good if you cannot put fuel into it. My brother has a generator for his home and it cost him $600 in fuel alone during a 10 day outage. His machine runs at full bore all the time whether it is calling for power or not. The Honda idles down when the demand is low.

I used an inverter that clamps on to the car battery during last year’s storm. It got us through, but it was only 750 watts. Good enough to recharge our flashlights and power one or two lights in the house, but not enough to power any motors other than the circulator on my wood boiler. I purchased a 1500 watt, but it went up in a puff of smoke as soon as I connected it to the battery. Of course it was out of warranty when I tried it. If your demand is low, the inverter might get you through the storm. I used my 750 watt inverter for about 5 or 6 days. It was enough to get us through the emergency and isn’t that what it is all about?

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-06-2012 13:56
Al, one more thing with the Hondas, they are stackable, you can connect two or more 3000w gensets together and the connection will correctly phase the current so that you can have double the wattage(although it is still only 115v). The regular non-inverter gensets cannot be phased without building some expensive electronics to correctly phase the current from more than one source.

I also have an inverter for emergencies although it is a 4000w modified sine wave inverter hooked up to a (multi-battery)12v battery bank, and it runs lights and other not-so-sensitive equipment just fine. I powered my shop lights(12~100w equivelant cfls), a band saw, my Hobart 135a wire welder, drills, grinders...etc(just not all at once).
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-06-2012 14:18
Good point regarding stacking.

One word of advice on fuel; the new ethanol fuels will damage parts of the fuel system if the system isn't drained during storage or if fuel is stored for extended periods of time. I store 15 gallons of fuel which is sufficient for about 3 days, give or take. Then there is the fuel in the wife's car that can be used if it is needed, another 20 gallons give or take. I only store the fuel for a couple of months after adding a stabilizer. I dump the fuel into the car and refill the storage cans with fresh fuel so there is no question there is always fresh fuel available.

The generator has a fuel shut off, so I close the shut off and run the engine until the fuel in the carb is used and the engine dies. I run the generator every month or so for about a half hour to keep everything lubricated and the battery charged. I do the same with all my equipment. That way the equipment is ready when I need it.

I should mention that I also have a Miller diesel welder that I used for an extended time (10 days) several years ago. It provided enough power to get us through the event, but it was loud and burned a lot of fuel over the 10 days. I would put a load on the machine for about an hour per day just to make sure the engine didn't build up any carbon from running at what amounts to a fast idle with no load. It wasn't the best solution, but it was what was available at the time.

I like your idea of the storage batteries and the inverter. Just remember to service the batteries and remember they have a finite life. Still, it is simple and it is something my wife could handle for short outages. A simple solar panel would be enought to keep the batteries charged when they were not being used.

Al
Parent - - By boring (*) Date 11-09-2012 22:00
Sorry to kinda hijack this thread, but I have an old engine driven Hobart 200A machine that has recepticles on it.  I'm told they generate DC only, I have never checked.  But living in New Jersey, recent events have got me thinking!  I have a generator, but it would be great to hve the Hobart available as a backup.  Do any of you have an idea how i might get it to generate AC voltage?

Thanks,
Mike
Parent - By SMTatham (**) Date 11-09-2012 22:08
Talk to "Tommyjoking" on here.  he has an old Hobart gas job and I'm sure can help you out.  The only Hobarts I ever was exposed to were late 70s "Mega-Arc" models with Ford Industrial 6 cylinder power.  Couples I saw were a little older and had Chrysler power.  All had AC output; in fact I "THINK" they were alternator machines that rectified the current for DC output.  Tommy is the guy to talk to!
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-10-2012 04:45
Tell Us more about Your machine, or better yet post a photo.

I have an old 2 cylinder Wisconsin powered Hobart 200 amp machine that has 5 KW 115/230 AC, but this machine welds at 2200 RPM and for 60hz needs to run at 1800 RPM. the voltage at the recepticles is a compromise, so You can run lights & power tools at welding speed. This means that the voltage is low at 1800 RPM.

I ran the machine faster to get an acceptable voltage under load, but this gave 70Hz. Nothing in Our house burned out or blew up, but it is a compromise based on running lights, grinders & drills on the job, rather than powering a modern home full of stuff.

If Your machine has DC only for Aux. power, there is no practicle way of changing it.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-10-2012 05:30 Edited 11-10-2012 05:33
Some of the older machines could power a grinder or light incadecent lights, but any electric motor (think grinder) had to be a "universal" motor to operate properly. 

The newer machines in many cases are alternators that use a diode bridge to produce DC. I scoped out my Miller a few years ago and it seems that it is a two phase AC alternator. They take the 120v AC off one phase. Strange set up, but it can weld like a champ. After all is said and done that's what I bought it for.

As for running the machines at the right RPM to get the right voltage and frequency, right on the money. The correct voltage and frequency is key if electric motors are involved. If lighting is the only concern; no problem.

Who's headig out to FabTech?

Al
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-10-2012 05:59
My Hobart has a commutator for DC welding output, and slip rings for AC standby power. AC is 45 volts and goes through a transformer for 110/220. Dad got this machine new in '59.

Induction motors run fine at 70Hz, but they run 1.166 x designed speed. This is readily aparent watching an old syncronous motor clock with a sweep second hand. It is obviously fast.

Low voltage is an issue of greater concern. If the voltage is too low, induction motors may not get to sufficient speed to disconect the starting windings. In this case they WILL BURN OUT.

Universal motors [motors with brushes] are not sensitive to high or low voltage within about 20% of that specified on AC. They are not sensitive to Hz [AC frequency].

Incadecent lights are not sensitive to frequency, are dim at low voltage and bright but don't last as long on higher voltage.

Electronic balast floressant bulbs, I have no clue.

I ran the 220 volt well pump, oil burner heater, lights, TV and the computer I had at the time with that Hobart. The only thing that didn't work was a Kohler power flush toilet with an electric pump that flushes it. There is a normal one in the basment:cool:.

One of the reasons for getting the Ranger 9 was PROPER standby power, that and it is a multi process welding machine.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-10-2012 06:25
You are a wealth of information Dave and it is always on the mark.

Henry has a link listed under Tricks of the Trade regarding inverters that is very good. You also posted there with some very good points. Good show to both you and Henry.

That's why I opted for the Honda inverter type generator. It produces very "clean" power when compared to a regular generator that requires the engine to run at the right rpm to produce the right voltage and frequency. Plus, they are easy on the ears and use fuel sparingly.

John Wright was on the mark with his comments regarding the Honda inverter generators.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-10-2012 06:29
Some of My boating friends used/use the 1000 on board, one of My blacksmithing friends uses a 2000 with His small camper.

They are great, and now come in larger sizes than those I listed above. Expensive, but worth it.
Parent - By oniexn Date 11-14-2012 05:04
I'm not expert when it comes in best welding machine product but I found this Miller welders product. They sell various welding machine application.
Since I'm not sure what you're looking for you may try to visit their webpage.
http://www.millerwelds.com/
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / What type of Welding Machine to Buy as a Generator

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill