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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / AWS D1.1 table 3.2 preheat
- - By monte cook Date 12-13-2012 14:57
My Question is regarding table 3.2 and preheat of A36 plate material welding to A36 and A500 box tube. I work as a P.M. for fabrication company and our 3rd party CWI is insisting that as long as material is above 32 degrees F no preheat is required. Customer is claiming that above 3/4 in to 2-1/2" preheat of 150 degrees is required. My CWI was navy/civilian trained and has 30 yrs experience. Who is correct?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 15:12 Edited 12-13-2012 15:46
Monte,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

More information is needed to answer with 100% certainty.  Here's why:
1) the table breaks up the thichnesses as follows-  1/8 to 3/4 incl, Over 3/4 thru 1-1/2 incl, Over 1-1/2 thru 2-1/2 incl, and Over 2-1/2. 
2) you have not provided the process and/or filler material.
3) you have not provided the exact thickness of both components.

Now, with the information provided I would speculate thus:  It appears the material is over 3/4" but we don't know if it is over 1 1/2".  If, as is the usual case, a process and filler is required that puts us in Cat 'B' in the Table then we can conclude that the minimum pre-heat is required to be 50* F not 32* F.  If the material is OVER 1 1/2" then it is required to be 150*F (as the customer is insisting).   You must go by the thicker material being joined. 

BUT, if you are not using a filler that is Low-Hydrogen then the customer is closer as 3/4- 1 1/2" is 150* and over 1 1/2" is 225*.  (using the '*' for degrees because I forgot my attachment code to put a degree symbol in the text).  (well, I found the code, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.  Did our last forum update make it not possible to use?)

Hopefully that answers your question, but, it would be nice to get more info so we can answer specifically.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By monte cook Date 12-13-2012 18:14
Ok Thanks and let me try again. We are using FCAW and we are welding a 2-1/2" A36 plated beveled to 0 to 1"A36 plate. So that I am clear the 21/2" is cut on both sides and welded to flat 1" plate A36. Just processing the plate and tacking has material well over 125 degrees. Hope this helps clear up my question. We were advised that no A36 material needed preheat
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 18:31
So...What happened to the A500 HSS? 

Anyway, with a 2 1/2" plate welded to a 1" plate (both A36) using FCAW you would look at Table 3.2 in Category 'B'.  Going to the 2 1/2" plate (the heavier section) you would need a pre-heat of 150* F.  (Customer was right to answer the Original Question)

Now, That is to be done before tacking as well.  Tacking is even more susceptible to cracking because of the fast heat-cool cycles.  And the cracking is not restricted to the weld, it will crack your base material.  And then, you just cover it up with weld and you have a built in fatigue crack just waiting to ruin your day.

Both plates need to be pre-heated to 150*F for a distance of 3" from the weld all along the weld path.  That will mean you will actually heat to slightly over 150* because with that thickness of plate if they heat exactly to the 150* mark, by the time they shut down the heat, set the torch aside, grab their hood and welder, the rest of the heat sink plate will have distributed/absorbed/thermally conducted (whatever) the heat and you will not be at your proper pre-heat.  That's why some inspectors insist on heating from the opposite side until the side where the welding will be done is at 150*.  Soaking through the entire piece assures the pre-heat will be maintained while starting the welding process. 

Sounds like you got some bad advice.  Somebody needs to learn how to read the Table.   And with 30 years experience... Oh my. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 18:17 Edited 12-13-2012 18:34
Just thought of a couple of more items that COULD make the customer even more in the right. 

1) The job specs may list a minimum pre-heat called out by the engineer and then that would supercede the D1.1 Table, and if it is higher it must be met;
2) The WPS that was submitted may have listed a higher pre-heat than was required by Code, but once it was approved by the engineer/customer it must be followed.

You may want to check into both of those and make sure that it isn't the code that is the problem. 

Edit: given the above new information these points are not at issue but should always be checked for compliance to ALL the job specs.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By monte cook Date 12-13-2012 18:39 Edited 12-13-2012 18:44
WPS preheat per aws D1.1  No preheat spec given This weld is a full pene so actual point of contact is 1/8 to 1/4 for first pass and from that point on we are above 250 degrees and waiting between passes to cool so we don't hit over 400 degrees. welding this beveled part is 36 + passes w/.045 FC wire. My concern is our CWI not advising us correctly or a general misunderstanding of 3.2 table on his part. point of weld is 1" plate to beveled 2-1/2. Not sure if that makes a differance. 1" plate is welded full pene to 6" sq tube A500 .
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 18:48 Edited 12-13-2012 18:51
Okay, I'm going to step further into the fire with your CWI/advisor.  Why are you not going over 400*?  D1.1 has no maximum, THOUGH I usually like to include the 550* maximum for the Seismic Supplement (D1.8) into my maximum spec on the WPS so that one WPS covers me for all my work.  Also, if it is good enough for Seismic there must be a reason and I want to increase the chances of a QUALITY component. 

But, 400* is a little low and hard to get anything done with that size plate and keep the temp down.

Full Pen? So, it is specified to be a CJP weld with a double bevel on the 2 1/2" plate with a root gap of 0?  And a Root face of...?  How about the bevel angle?  Are you using a pre-qualified joint design from Clause 3 of D1.1?  Are you then backgouging from the second side after at least part of the first side is welded to get to clean metal and start filling from the second side to keep the stresses distributed?  Otherwise your 2 1/2" plate is going to start pulling to one side and you won't have complete joint penetration.

I would also consider a heavier electrode, 3/32 or at least 1/16, in order to reduce the number of passes required.  It would help you keep the stresses and the heat down as well as improving your time.  (Unless of course you don't have enough of these to do to warrant a change like that).

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-13-2012 23:23
I agree with Brent, using a heavier electrode will help you run a few extra passes before hitting the upper interpass limit of 400F because your travel speeds will be faster and you'll be putting more material in the joint. I didn't see in the questions/replies where that 400F came from, so I'm assuming the WPS was written showing a 400F upper limit.

on a side note: Table 3.2 should not be a problem to read for your CWI.
Start on the far left and work to the right asking yourself questions as you go....find your matrial ASTM/grade, then move over and find the welding process being used, then find the thickness of the thickest part at the point of welding, then see what the chart tells you for preheat.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 18:59
With your edit answering my question about what happened to the A500 HSS, the 1" plate to HSS would only need to be heated to 50* (unless that is one HEAVY HSS).  If you welded that first, it may put you at least close on your heat for tacking and welding the other plate.  That will depend upon how easily this can be handled, that may not be an acceptable progress of work.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 19:19 Edited 12-13-2012 19:27
I know I'm going to regret this,...

Is your CWI an in house inspector?  Is he AWS certified?  Or what is it that qualifies him as a CWI?  Just 30+ years of welding experience? 

There is a big difference between an AWS/CWI and someone who is qualified only by the company he works for.  If he is not an AWS/CWI, he is not a CWI.  He is an authorized inspector, but NOT a CWI.  The same goes double if he is an outside contractor/consultant claiming to be a CWI. 

There is a function on this site by going to the AWS Website button above to check the validity of those claiming to be CWI's.  I would suggest using it.  Unless the answer to some of my above questions automatically answers the question of his qualifications. 

This whole things sounds way too far afield to be involving a legitimate AWS/CWI.  Especially with any amount of experience under his belt.

edit: thought I had better clarify a little.  There are some inspectors out there who are not current, and even some who have never been, CWI's.  And some of them are very good and knowledgable.  BUT, this doesn't sound like that.  Something is wrong.  Either he is not a CWI, or he is very poorly versed in the D1.1 Code.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-13-2012 20:19
And lets be honest, even if they do have an AWS/CWI what does that guarantee? All you need is about a 76% on each section to pass. That equates to an average knowledge. People expect more from the CWI status than average. You sit in on some of these seminars and you just bite your tongue on some of the questions...AND answers provided by attendees. I give them credit for putting in the time and learning new things. But the things covered are pretty basic. Shouldn't this be done prior to pursuing a CWI? And seriously, the test isn't that hard. I'm not trying to rip anybody but we've all run into CWI's and wondered how in the hell they ever got there. And for some reason many CWI's think that's the holy grail of welding knowledge when actually it's more like an entry level. This is the minimum you need to know. But to have a CWI misqoute, misinterpret, or just be flat out wrong is not uncommon. If your in management and your hiring someone to inspect and consult on welding issues and all you see is...welder for 20 years, AWS/CWI...and that's it, with no other PDH's or technical training listed then you're in big trouble.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-13-2012 20:29 Edited 12-14-2012 14:31
Oh, it's worse than that!  They only have to get a 72% on each section and they still pass.  Unless the teacher (in HS, not on an AWS CWI exam) used a curve to grade on, that used to be considered a FAILING score when I was in school. 

But, I must be careful about casting judgement in any direction without knowing ALL the facts.  I hope my questions just raise a caution flag.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By monte cook Date 12-13-2012 20:30
Thanks for your interest in my question. From table 3.2 thickness of thickest part at point of welding is 1" plate the 2 1/2" part is no more than 1/8 at point of weld. And we do back gouge and 1' plate is groove welded to 6 x 6 x .500 tube on bench and then 2 1/2" part is tacked. After first pass tacks are remove and not part of weld zone. the taper from weld point is 1.16 . How does this apply to preheat requirement? Thanks again for your help!
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-13-2012 20:38
Are you suggesting that pre-heat may not be required because the the welding is not occuring on the outside surface of the 2-1/2" thick material but rather, since there is a bevel, and a root face of 1/8" that the thickness requirements for pre-heat need only apply to the requirements for 1/8" thickness? Only asking for clarification.
Parent - - By monte cook Date 12-13-2012 20:51
I'm asking if the 3.2 table heading means literally thickness at point of weld or does it mean thickness prior to beveling. This part is only 2.29 thick 2 1/2 wide including beveled area. I'm not suggesting anything only want to understand. At the point of weld is how 3.2  reads so does it matter. Either way I'm being paid to do this I just want to be certain before I bust on my CWI. I rely on this guy to keep our shop in compliance. Im suggesting that maybe  the 1" plate is the thickest part?
Parent - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-13-2012 21:09
I would have to agree with your customer if my understanding of your description is accurate. I would also agree with your statement of "thickness prior to beveling".
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-14-2012 02:20 Edited 12-14-2012 14:45
Okay.  Monte, I am having some problems comprehending the progression here. 

1) The reduced thickness from beveling has nothing to do with the thickness for calculating the pre-heat.  It is based upon the thickness of the stock material.
2) It also has nothing to do with the height of the part, if your part is off 2 1/2" stock then that is it's thickness, even if you cut it so it is only 2.29" tall.
3) Now, if you want, go ahead and calculate it for the thinner dimension (height or width, NOT at the root face).  But, not for the thickness at the 'edge' of the bevel (properly: root face). 
4) If you are dependant upon this guy for your shop's compliance, you have a MAJOR problem. 

In reference to #1 above;  There is not time and space to go into all aspects of how this is done and quote all the references that would detail this point.  Suffice it to say that since the temperature is to be taken at a point approximately 3" away from the point of welding, the determination of the pre-heat would be to the thickness of the material at that point 3" away.  This is to insure that proper heating has been achieved to reduce thermal transfer/conduction that would cause the base material to cool too quickly (especially when tacking) which is the cause of multiple unsatisfactory conditions leading to failure. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 12-14-2012 03:46
My first question to an Inspector who starts quoting code of the top of his/her head, "Could you show me that in the code before we proceed?"
Parent - - By monte cook Date 12-14-2012 14:34
Thanks for your kind replies. I had hope for a clear understanding of this table and it appears that this forum is exactly like everyone i ever seen. Full of opinions and lacking reason.... If a part was made of 4" x 4" stock and a leg was machined 1" thick x 3" high and the 1" leg x 3" high makes a T configuration 4"wide x 1"thick w/ 3" x 1" leg welded to 1" plate what would the preheat be?????

Have a Blessed Day!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-14-2012 15:12
So now we are lacking reason.  I think someone who came to us to ask questions of the professionals who frequent this site should really consider the advice given when all who have posted have been in agreement.  

Then, you change the question in an attempt to justify the WRONG interpretation and application of the Code's limits for Pre-Heat.   Unless we didn't have all the information in the first place and so were misled it really doesn't matter.  The pre-heat is still what your customer insists upon.  They were right in this case.

Now, if I understand your description of the next scenario correctly then it appears it would be based upon the 1" dimension for both pieces unless the job specs/engineer requests otherwise.  Now, if you bevel the edge of the 1" portion of your imaginary part for hypothetical consideration it would still be based upon the 1" thickness not the root face dimension of the bevel.

But that is not the conditions that apply to your original question at the beginning of this thread.  A bevel edge changes nothing in regard to pre-heat calculations.  A machined surface for that distance COULD.  Especially with the overall size of the part being described.  But, if it were me, I'd probably like to see an RFI from the engineer clarifying HIS position (on your hypothetical part).

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-14-2012 19:45
After reading this reponse I had to go back and re-read my initial response as well. I really didn't intend for that to be an insulting comment toward your inspector. My apologies to him/her if it were. That was a comment around AWS/CWI status in general terms. Regaridng your original question and using logic that supports preaheat requirements only pertaining to material thickness at the point of contact where welding initiates...when then would preheat ever be required on a CJP butt joint if ambient temps are controlled (I understand your joint isn't a butt joint configuration, just using this as an example)? If you were welding 2" thick material to 2" thick material with an included angle of 75 degrees (welding bevels of 37.5 degress on each edge)) with a root face of one 1/8" (with or without backing) you could omit any preheat requirements since technically you are only welding at the 1/8 thickness section. And since you've started welding, the entire joint is heating up thus omitting any other preheat requirements as the welder progresses to fill out the joint as long as the material temps are above preheat requirements of table 3.2. With this logic you would never ever have to use preheat on any pipe or tubular connections and save those industries billions of dollars! With all due respect, that seems a little ridiculous doesn't it?
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-14-2012 20:06
Very good point.  I wasn't inclined to take all the time required to expand upon all the requirements, hypothetical possibilities, and welding 101 classes that this is covered in.

I'd like to see someone pass the exams with the belief that this was how you calculated Pre-Heat.  Especially after going through the WIT book for 3 days with a knowledgable instructor. 

It seems clear to us but then most of us have completed the seminar, exam, plus years of Welding 101, 201, etc. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-14-2012 20:25
Fundamentals of preheat by R. Scott Funderburke

http://www.jflf.org/pdfs/papers/keyconcepts1.pdf
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-15-2012 14:49
Nice read.  Thanks.  I saved it to my 'info' file for future reference.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 12-14-2012 14:41
He is an authorized inspector, he is NOT a CWI

Brent,
First of all please excuse me for being so anal about this vernacular.  As I deal primarily with ASME, API and B32.1 Codes, I take exception with anyone being called an authorized inspector unless such person is an employee of an ASME accredited authorized inspection agency who holds a vaiid National Board Commission with an “A” endorsement and has been properly qualified in the ASME Codes (Sec 1, IV, V, VIII Div 1, IX, QAI-1, B31.1 and applicable NBIC standards).  Such person is not an employee of an fabrication company nor an independent self employed contractor.

QCRobert
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-14-2012 14:55
Robert,

This thread is dealing with D1.1, he can be an in house authorized inspector but that in no way makes him a CWI.  He only gets that status by passing AWS exams like all the rest of us.

But I understand where you are coming from, and quite frankly, I'd like to see that removed from D1.1.  They want their guys to look at it before I get there, especially if they are a Pre-Approved Fabricator shop, then their guy should HAVE TO BE an AWS/CWI.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 12-14-2012 20:32
holy cow Iv'e never seen so much energy and discussion on a pre-heat table....just sayin.

Use the thickness of the thicker parts to be joined.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-14-2012 23:23 Edited 12-14-2012 23:49
This discussion is getting convoluted with new, additional, and changing conditions as the thread drags out.

The bottom line; if it is unclear just what the weld joint looks like, provide a sketch detailing the actual conditions and details. Why should we guess what is being welded? Provide all the facts and details upfront. This isn't Paul Harvey's radio spot where we have to wait until after the commercial to hear the rest of the story. This is the second thread I've read today where the individual posting the question has to be queried to provide more detail.

Preheat is based on the thickness of the thicker member and whether hydrogen controls are in place. If the detail requires the thicker member to be machined to reduce the thickness to the same or similar thickness as the thinner member, preheat is still based on the full thickness of the thicker member. That would be the case unless the reduced thickness extends a multiple of the reduced thickness, i.e., several inches. My position is based on the fact that the thicker section is still a heat sink unless the reduced thickness extends for a distance that ensures the heat sink effect isn't a factor.

If the case is "special,” show us the special conditions so we can provide a reasonable response.

What I like about forums such as ours is if you don't like the answers recieved, feel free to visit other forums. Surely, sooner or later the response sought will be found. The value of the infomation provided is often worth just what you pay for it. It isn't worth much if it cost nothing, but it is worth a million dollars if that is what you paid. The response may not be any more valid, but you might feel more comfortable with the answer if it is expensive. If the information is wrong, it will be expensive by the time the project is completed.

Inspectors, under the auspices of D1.1, can be in-house inspectors that have no formal training, little experience, and are still assigned the task of representing the fabricator on inspection matters. The in-house inspector may not be certified or may be certified by his employer in accordance with AWS B5.2 or ASNT SNT-TC-1A. The training provided is whatever the employer feels is adequate for the tasks that need to be performed. If the inspector is certified by AWS, i.e., a CWI, there is no assurance he/she has a working knowledge of D1.1 or that a copy of D1.1 is available to reference.

One of the first questions I ask when performing as a third party inspector is, "What is the color of the cover of D1.1?" It is surprising how many times the response is a blank stare and "I don't know."

You cannot inspect the work properly without copies of the applicable standards. Few of us have the intellect or memory to perform our job without referring to the appropriate standards. I typically carry a copy of the AISC Steel Construction Manual, AWS D1.1, and my ASTM standards when I inspect structural steel. My hat is off to anyone that has the mental capacity to have all that information stored in their memory and do not need to reference those standards when performing structural steel inspections. 

It sounds as if this particular inspector is so smart he doesn't need to review the requirements of D1.1. He may be familar with NAVSEA TP278 which is not as conservative as D1.1. The problem is that the current project must comply with  D1.1. This is another case of what was done on the last job has little to do with the current project.

As I've said before, "10% of the people excel at their jobs, 80% perform adequately, and 10% should find different employment." I usual do my damn best to make sure I don’t fall into the latter category. :eek:

Happy Holidays Fellas!

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 12-15-2012 00:34
You Rock, Al
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-15-2012 11:01
Al,

There you go with logic again... Haven't you learned your lesson? :twisted:
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / AWS D1.1 table 3.2 preheat

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