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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Prequalified weld join or not?
- - By ctacker (****) Date 01-24-2013 06:13 Edited 01-24-2013 09:05
Would any of you call this joint a prequalified joint or not?  AWS D1.1
Backing bar is a piece of 1" round bar, root is approx. 3/8" the included angle of the weld prep is approx. 30 degrees.
The orientation is 125 degrees, so according to note j in figures 3.3, 3.4 its a corner joint.
any thoughts?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-24-2013 17:47
Where to start???

I agree with Ravi's query, the edge prep is not acceptable based upon the pic.  Though the notches/gouges may not be over 3/16" deep it does not meet 5.15.4.3 Roughness Requirements meeting with sample 3 (C4.1 Sample Gauge).

Second, Round bar for Backing?  What grade?  Hot rolled, cold rolled, pin stock, do they even know?  What does the WPS or job specs call for?  I 'presume' the steel falls into one of the D1.1 classifications.  But does it match the flat bar/plate grade?

Third, angle... I don't think so.  It would need to be opened up wider than that.  It may have been right before bringing it around to that orientation, but now it is too tight.

As to rather it is even a prequalified joint if those items were corrected... I'm having a hard time picturing it.  I need to take a better look at 3.3 & 3.4 details and notes.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 01-24-2013 19:19
The weld prep was cleaned up before backing was in place. The backing used is A36 bar. everything was else was in place except the WPS used was for BU-2, they didn't have a BCU-2.

My main querry is the side of steel the prep is on. 3.13 says preps shall be as detailed in 3.4.
3.4 shows all corner joints to be welded from the outside of corner.

Go back to 3.11.2 about corner joints prep and it only talks about the outside corner preperation.

the only note that applies is note j. the orientation of members.  45 ° to 135° for corner joints.

Yes I'm the TPI on the job. The Piledrivers union seem to be the worst when it comes to code compliance and welding abilities. :)

I'm averaging a couple NCR's a day.

Thanks guys. but I still have no answer. Thought that one would be worth debating.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-24-2013 17:50
Just curious, Why are they using the round bar for backing vs using a piece of 3/8" bent plate? I'm not sure how I feel about the round bar in that joint due to the outside intersections between the plate and the round bar may act like a stress raiser more so than if an appropriate bent plate was used.

Are you the TPI reviewing the WPSs that are in place to determine if it is appropriate for the welding that is to take place?
I'm trying to figure out which Pre-qualified joint detail would allow such an arrangement....C-U2a?
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 01-24-2013 19:24
Fabrication work is being done on-site. These guys don't even have a compressor to run an arc-air. All backgouging and crack removal is ground out.

They turned in a B -U2a WPS. but note j classifies it as C-U2a. thats not the big issue. They can write a WPS for C-U2a.

My main querry is about the joint being welded from inside the corner. All details in figures 3.4 show outside corners prepped.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-24-2013 20:52
Ahhh, I didn't even think about the welding being done on the inside vs the outside like Figs 3.3 and 3.4 show. Good catch....Hmm, the code seems silent on that issue unless I'm missing something. It does address the fact that it has to have backing if welded from one side to be Pre-qualified in 3.13.2.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 01-24-2013 22:26
The only code references are 3.11.2, which only talks of outside corner preperation, and 3.13 that states prequalifeid joints shall be as detailed in 3.4. it doesn't say simular to 3.4 or anything else.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-25-2013 12:23
Yeah, I'm following you....(I agree, was just looking for more concrete language within the code somewhere). Well, the Commentary C3.11 points you to Fig C-3.3 and show alternative configurations, but it depicts all outside corner prep. So, I'm inclined to lean towards your thinking....another thing is the joint will close up do to shrinkage, will that be a problem?
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 01-25-2013 12:43 Edited 01-25-2013 12:49
I looked through the commentary and different sections of the code, could not find anything concrete except 3.13 (2010) (shall be as detailed in fig. 3.4....) which this is not exactly as detailed.
I added a crude drawing of the joint in question. Maybe Al Moore will chime in, I would like his take on it.

edit: you need to scroll down to see it
Attachment: Scan0004.pdf (85k)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-25-2013 12:48
C-3.11.2 says it allows an alternative option for prep of the groove.....but to me Fig C-3.3 only shows outside prep and not inside prep.

I'm wondering how Al and some of the others here feel about the corner prep(inside vs outside) and remaining Pre-qualified.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 01-25-2013 12:50
thats my take, and 3.11.2 mentions outside joint prep. but no mention of inside.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-25-2013 12:51
I still don't like those intersections where the round bar and edges of the plates meet...seems like a sever stress raiser to me.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 01-25-2013 12:56
its actually a beam flange, no plate. the other flange is prepped on outside corner.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-25-2013 14:22
Beam flange...Plate...almost the same thing :razz: :evil:
- - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 01-24-2013 17:16
What kindof animal chewed your preps ????????????????????????????????/

A wolverine or a badger  ?

How could this joint even be considered AWS  D 1.1  work  ?
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 01-24-2013 19:25
That would be a piledriver. probably a mix of the two. :lol:
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-26-2013 00:32
Is or was the joint back gouged and welded from the second side?

Al
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 01-26-2013 03:04
No, I think it would qualify as prequalified if it was.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Prequalified weld join or not?

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