B31.3 cert

Date 02-03-2013 21:17 Edited 02-03-2013 21:22

Hello Chris;

B31.3 is a construction code that provides the contractor with design, materials, fabrication, and inspection requirements and criteria for process piping. Other construction codes address other types of construction: Section I - Boilers, Section III - Nuclear, Section VIII - Unfired pressure vessels, B31.1 -power piping, etc. They are not a "how to" standards in that they do not define "how" something is to be done.

A while back a welder asked a question about how an intregrally reinforced branch fitting (weld-o-let/thread-o-let) is to be welded. He questioned why the code doesn't tell the welder how to weld the fitting. The short answer is that the ASME codes do not tell the contractor "how to " do anything.

Back to your question: The specific technique to be used when welding a test coupon is specified by the Contractor's WPS. This is one reason why ASME welder qualifications are not transferable from one contractor to another. Each contractor is obligated to test his employees using their own qualified WPS.

The WPS is qualified following the requirements contained in ASME Section IX. Welding progression is an essential variable for welder qualification. If the WPS indicates the progression is vertical uphill, the welder is qualified for that progression. If the welder is qualified using vertical downhill progression, he is only qualified for downhill progression. Which progression is to be used is at the discression of the contractor.

Under the auspices of the ASME codes, the contractor is responsible for the qualifications of their own welders. The qualification is not transferable and the contractor cannot accept welder qualifications issued by other contractors. About now someone is going to pipe in and say I'm wrong, and I will not disagree. The circumstances where a contractor can accept the qualifications issued by an "association" or "organization" requires both contractors to be present for the test and both contractors have to examine the test and accept the test results. It is a special case.

The welder performance test report issued by a school, lab, or an AWS ATF when they test a welder in accordance with ASME Section IX is not transferable to and cannot be accepted by a contractor unless a company representative was present for the test and the representative examines the coupon and the test results. ASME is pretty clear that the contractor's representative is one of the contractor's employees. Unlike the performance of NDT, the function of testing the welder is not something that can be subcontracted. The following is an excerpt from ASME Section IX.

QW-300.2
(a) The basic premises of responsibility in regard to
welding are contained within QW-103 and QW-301.2.
These paragraphs require that each manufacturer or contractor
(an assembler or an installer is to be included
within this premise) shall be responsible for conducting
tests to qualify the performance of welders and welding
operators in accordance with qualified Welding Procedure
Specifications, which his organization employs in the
construction of weldments built in accordance with the
Code. The purpose of this requirement is to ensure that
the manufacturer or contractor has determined that his
welders and welding operators using his procedures are
capable of developing the minimum requirements specified
for an acceptable weldment. This responsibility cannot
be delegated to another organization.

The last sentence says it all.

Best regards - Al

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 02-04-2013 12:06

Hello Al,

Hope all things are good with you.

I may be wrong but I do believe their are allowances for acceptance of welder performance qualification from other organizations when performing work in accordance with B31.3. No code books with me right now and not really in "QC" mode but I am pretty sure thats the case.

In addition there are additional requirements outside the scope of Sec IX for B31.3 piping welder performance qualifications.

But without a code handy, this is just heresay. Hope all are haveing a wonderful day.

Gerald Austin
Iuka, MS

By 803056

Date 02-04-2013 13:30

Good morning Gerald;

I agree regarding the special case of when the welder's qualifications are transferable. I addressed that in the forth or fifth paragraph of my initial response.

Regarding the additional requirements of B31.3 with regards to Section IX, again you are correct. There are a couple of major differences when the fluid service is specified as high pressure. When the fluid service is deemed high pressure, the welder's coupon must pass the guided bend tests, RT is not accepted. This may be what you had in mind:

K328.2.3 Performance Qualification by Others.Welding
performance qualification by others is not permitted.

There may be some other requirements, so the construction code has to be reviewed to see what changes are invoked.

The testing lab (ATF included) or school most likely will not know and they often fail to ask what construction code will be used in production. The construction code often modifies the requirements of Section IX.

Best regards - Al

By nantong (**)

Date 02-04-2013 13:32

Al IMHO I cannot understand why AWS has this view (jump in me old mate Mr Feder!) In the UK we will accept a welder who have their own certificates. If an SMAW welder is qualified on non-impacted tested material where does the code exclude him on a technical basis? I feel this is based on jobs for the boys or unwillingness to change by the welding establishment. I see no sense in this if the welders have been tested by an independant 3rd party.

By Jovi Zhu (**)

Date 02-05-2013 02:11

nantong, my friend~ :smile:

This is all about RESPONSIBILITY.

As what Al quoted: "This responsibility cannot be delegated to another organization."

One can accept anyone on the street as long as he/she is happy to pay the back charge or be put in jail.

All jobs/works can be subcontracted but RESPONSIBILITY can not.

One reason the ASME Code can be worldwide recognized as an international code is that it righteously deal with "who to be responsible" other than "who to do the job".

Have a great day~

Jovi

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 02-06-2013 03:39

Nantong,
Hello my old mate.
I think if there are any questions regarding "jobs for the boys" it should be the requirement to have qualifications extended every two years by an examiner / examining body - nice little money earner for Lloyds etc.

As for accepting own certificates, you and I both know it is a major rort going on in the UK.
Independant 3rd party ?
All these training organisations in the UK currently issuing welder qualification certificates have a vested interest in passing as many people as they can - not have too many customers if everyone fails the test.

One other thing I find curious that you may be able to shed some light on.
BSEN 287 Clause 6.3 states the welder must follow a WPS or pWPS....... - if the welder is following a preliminary Welding Procedure Specification that means it has never been tested and is therefore not even qualified.
What value is there in qualifying a welder to a WPS that may have totally unacceptable (or unworkable) variables ?
Cheers,
Shane

By nantong (**)

Date 02-07-2013 12:33

Zhu, I am not disputing what ASME says I am trying to find out the logic behind it. Clearly in Europe independent third parties test welders at test houses that have no concern whether the welders pass or fail, they get paid the same money pass or fail (which is likely to lead to edging towards fail if anything to provide extra income from retests) whereas contractors testing their own welders have a vested interested in their welders passing as tests are expensive, materials NDE etc and I would go so far as say that many clients want welders to pass as delays in a project will eventually cost them money.

Shane what is wrong with a pWPS? If a welder welds the pWPS and the procedure passes then surely the welder must get a qualification by being the welder who has qualified the procedure? If the procedure fails then he gets no qaulification.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 02-07-2013 13:10

Mr B,
There is nothing in EN 287 stating the pWPS even has to be submitted for testing ?
I can write a pWPS on the back of a beer coaster, a welder can then take the beer coaster to the nearest training house, sit a welder qualification test based on my variables and walk out with a valid (EN 287) welder qualification.
So, hypothetically the amps and/or volts could have been that low that if the test coupon was ever subjected to a bend test they may have all snapped - is that a valid welder qualification test ?

Tiny little New Zealand has always been at the forefront of the "proper" way of testing (IMHO). All ASME welder qualifications are witnessed by a third party inspector and all companies understand this additional cost and factor that in their bid prices - makes a truely level playing field.
I spent 4 years with SGS and I would have 5 days a week all over the country witnessing welder qualification tests - I, and the company I worked for couldn't care less if they passed or failed as there was so much work out there.
Cheers,
Shane

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 02-08-2013 00:47

Hi Nantong!

You should direct your query to Walter Sperko of Sperko Engineering... Look him up... He's easy enough to find.
He would most definitely enjoy explaining the logic in the way ASME thinks for you. :eek:

Behave yourself "B"

Henry

By nantong (**)

Date 02-09-2013 12:42

Hi Zhu, I am not expecting an answer on who is responsible. I can read ASME and know what they say for responsibility but what I cannot understand is why independent third parties cannot be responsible for testing welders.

Shane, Have a look at EN15607 and it gives a detailed description of pWPS WPS PQR's and how it works. pWPS and WPS like a chicken and an egg? How do you get a qualified WPS until some welder has welded a pWPS? (remember too a third party bears no responsibility).

Henry good to hear from you and hope you are in good health. Shane has sent me many articles by Mr Sperko and I have appreciated the information which has always been put across in an easily readable interesting way (thanks Shane) but I would have expected the mainstream of participants on this forum who have worked outside of the USA to voice opinion on this. Engineers involved in supplying pressure equipment to EU must be well aware in the difference between US and EU on welding qualification requirements.

By Jovi Zhu (**)

Date 02-09-2013 14:22 Edited 02-12-2013 18:24

nantong,

IMHO ASME doesn't preclude testing subcontracted and performed by 3rd. Being responsible for conducting the test doesn't mean you have to conduct the testing yourself. I'm wondering if I can understand it this way: you are responsible = you are to take the blame.
Back charge due to bad welder performance is to be charged directly to the contractor/manufacturer, not to the 3rd.
3rd party is generally responsible for the objective results of a prior mutually-agreed testing program.

From a point of "Statistical Quality Control," it's my humble opinion that ASME Section IX is of "General" rules for procedure and performance qualification. Construction sections give more "specific" rules for specific products. Since ASME B&PVC covers various products, there are lots of process variables to control.

I'm reminded of the Code Case # 2115-3 (SA213-TP310HCbN) for Section I construction. The Code Case required " Separate welding procedure and performance qualifications shall be conducted for the material in accordance with Section IX." That's to say you have to qualify the procedure and welder for this material separately. You can not just apply a PNo.8 procedure or use a PNo.8 welder. There is no universal key to all locks. There is no such a welder testing program run by a 3rd to qualifiy universal welders.

Hence ASME Code leave the control of specific process variables to the contractor/manufacturer other than simply accept certificates issued by 3rd parties.

However, we do see ASME accept some certificates. E.g., Section V generally accept ASNT ACCP for NDE personnel qualification and B31.1 accept personnel qualified to AWS QC1 (CWI) for the visual examination of welds. This can be considered as an acceptance by ASME for some well-established qualification programs.

Just some thoughts.

Jovi